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Old March 16, 2013, 09:42 PM   #26
22-rimfire
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Any semi-auto rifle that somehow turns into a full auto needs to go to the gunsmith immediately. SKS's had that problem with two or three round bursts. Occasionally you hear of a 22 rifle that will shoot a burst. In which case, it is either broke or very dirty (or both).

But fully automatic rifles and handguns are legal if you live in a state that allows them (aka "machine gun state"), willing to pay the extremely high price tag, and willing to wade through the paperwork.

To the OP, all you need to do is go to the machine gun shoot in Knob Creek KY and you will see many full auto firearms in action. It is a very big deal. You will also see other military hardware in action there that do not have explosive "tips".
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Old March 16, 2013, 09:46 PM   #27
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In my limited experience, semi-auto weapons that suffer sear or disconnector failures get immediately red-tagged and locked up, pending immediate transfer to the gunsmith for repair.
Very true. I knew a guy who'd done a shade-tree trigger job on his 1911, resulting in hammer follow. He thought it was funny that the gun would double- and triple-tap. That was before he wrecked the locking lugs and sear.

Many semiautomatic firearms will have serious issues if fired fully auto.

That said, somehow inducing the condition is technically manufacturing an NFA weapon without a license, and that's an easy (and prestigious) bust for a wary ATF agent.
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Old March 16, 2013, 09:56 PM   #28
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The BATFE gets very excited when they get an informant about someone owning an unlicensed fully automatic firearm.
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Old March 16, 2013, 10:42 PM   #29
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I never found anything definitive saying that the "malfunction" was intentional, but to the government's case, it didn't matter - one trigger pull resulting in multiple discharges equals "machine gun", even if it's due to a malfunction.

To lend credence to the "unintentional" nature of the multiple discharges, supposedly the ATF tech couldn't duplicate the issue until he switched to some soft-primered ammunition.
I read the guy's own posts on arfcom. He wasn't even interested in mounting a defense based on whether or not the gun was shooting full auto intentionally or not. Like I said, he wasn't concerned with that aspect at all because he was going to argue that the feds had no jurisdiction in the case. He was going to use that defense because he said it had worked for him before in federal court. (Emphasis added this time.)

Said a different way, he was arguing that what he had done to the rifle was immaterial because the feds had no jurisdiction to prosecute him. That might be a good point, but it definitely takes this case out of the realm of "a bad trigger job sent this guy to jail". That is not what happened. I read the entire 2 year thread over on arfcom and he never once claimed that he was being railroaded over a screwed up trigger job. He just claimed that the feds didn't have the right to prosecute him for what happened.

FURTHERMORE, he wasn't actually prosecuted because the gun was firing full auto, he was prosecuted for loaning a gun that was known to fire full auto to someone else. In other words, it wasn't even an issue of whether that the gun was malfunctioning or intentionally modified. What was at issue was that he KNEW it was firing full auto and instead of having it fixed, he loaned it out in an attempt to sell it.

Here is how you avoid Olofson's plight.

1. Don't have a history of selling material on how to convert the gun in question to full auto.

2. Don't get in trouble with the feds repeatedly for firearms issues.

3. Don't build your gun with full auto parts like 3 position selectors, etc.

4. Don't modify your gun internally in a way that suggests that you intended it to fire full auto.

5. (This is the really important one.) If you know a gun fires full auto (regardless of the reason), don't loan it to someone and hint that it might fire full auto. Instead, immediately disable it (take it apart) and make sure it is repaired as soon as possible.

Here's a post that is enlightening. Unfortunately some of the attachments no longer work. Originally they were evidence submissions/affidavits from the trial.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...10#post4664310

The bottom line is that it is completely inaccurate to characterize Olofson as an innocent guy who went to jail because his rifle broke or because he screwed up a trigger job.

To be precise, he went to jail because he loaned a firearm that was known to fire full auto to someone. The evidence strongly suggests that he intentionally modified it to perform in that manner, but that's really not the primary issue. He would have been home free if he had done what a rational, law abiding person would do once they discovered that they had a gun that sometimes fired full auto. That is, break it down and immediately either take it to a gunsmith for repair or destroy and dispose of the damaged parts.

What he did instead was try to sell it to someone and while they were evaluating it, they got caught with it and turned Olofson in.
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Old March 17, 2013, 12:29 AM   #30
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Here are a couple more sources on the Olofson incident.

The first is the thread in which he blabbed about the whole thing on AR15.com. Rule of thumb: if I'm being indicted by the ATF, it's probably best to lawyer up and shut up, not tell the world about it.

Sebastian also has a good round-up of things.

GOA and JPFO both tarnished their credibility when they came out prematurely to castigate the NRA for not supporting Olofson.
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Old March 17, 2013, 01:10 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
Go MP, when you get out, finish up with Police Academy, and you get full auto for life, it seems. Fair? Too bad, it's the law.
I dont know of anywhere that just being a LEO gives someone the right or responsibility for "full auto for life" and if you know different please feel free to let us know.

A LEO can have a full auto, or select fire firearm, post 86, for on duty use. There are no other exceptions that I am aware of for a LEO to have a full auto or select fire firearm otherwise, without having to go through the legal paperwork and paying the price that any other person will have to go through.
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:56 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
1. The AR-15 is NOT a fully automatic assault rifle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornToLooze View Post
...full auto AR-15 (no such thing)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post
The AR-15 is not a selective fire weapon.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you guys. While I agree that today AR-15 is synonymous with the semi-auto version of the M-16 and that's what most people think of, the originals were Full Auto and marked as AR-15's

Case in point the Colt 601

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Old March 17, 2013, 06:33 PM   #33
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Interesting, but I'd have to put that into the realm of trivia as opposed to really changing the general classification of the AR-15 as a semi-automatic rifle.

There are some full-auto AR-15s that were converted to full auto, and apparently even some that were made that way originally many years ago, but when people talk about buying AR-15 rifles today, they are talking about semi-automatic rifles.

In a similar manner, the fact that CZ makes (or has made--don't know if they're still in production) fully automatic CZ-75 pistols and there have been some CZ-75s converted to full auto doesn't really change the fact that the CZ-75 is a semi-automatic firearm.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:08 PM   #34
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I've seen an SKS go full auto and empty all the rounds. Luckily the shooter was good enough to control it down range. He was horrified. Scared the whatever out of the firing line.
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:28 PM   #35
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I wonder if Mr (or Ms) Kandy even cares? It appears he joined, started this one thread and then left.

I get the idea there wasn't a question here, but just a rather misinformed statement.
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Old March 18, 2013, 12:54 PM   #36
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Regarding the Olafson Case, Haven't heard much about that in a while. I assume that he is out of jail now, having served such term as he was sentenced to.

I never did read all that much of the case, some but not a whole lot. The actions of both the ATF and the federal prosecutor struck me as having been akin to swatting a house fly with an 8"naval rifle. Otherwise, Olafson might have been his own worst enemy, with respect to such posts as it is claimed he made, I'm not familiar with this AR-15 site. As Lincoln supposedly offered, Most people sound a lot smarter with their mouths shut than they do with their mouths open, or It's better to stand mute and have people think you a fool than to speak, removing any doubt.

Otherwise on semiautomatic arms going "full auto", as I remember, at Camp Perry, I saw an M-1 rifle go full auto. To much trigger work had been done or worn parts led to this event, fortunately nobody was hurt

Additionally, from personal experience, I've seen 1911 pistols go full auto a couple of times. In one case, with my own pistol, after several years of use, it went full auto, the result of to fine a trigger job and or worn parts. I had the pistol fixed, replacement GI parts, and adjusted to about 4.5# pull. Never had any such trouble again. Another time, I had stopped at a military base to look around and happened into a Leg Match. They were short one body, and I was dragooned into the competition, where I realistically had no business being. In any event, I was given a match prepared 1911, and a box of Match Ammunition. At one point, I loaded the pistol, dropped the slide with the slide release, just like I did with my own piece. It spit out 5 rounds, all at once, causing some concern. I held the pistol downrange, though it ended up somewhat elevated, no harm being done. Suffice it to say that "stuff happens", even to the best of people, I make no claim to being one such.

As to my comments in Post #65, response to the originator, I believe that the facts support my comments. Additionally, the ownership, possession of full automatic (machine guns) and or selective selective fire capable arms is NOT illegal, assuming all the hoops are jumped through, all the ts are crossed, all the i's dotted. One should, of course, check with state law too, however the private citizen can, depending on the size of their purse and their baloney quotient, possess automatic weapons (machine guns) and selective fire arms, among other things. One pays their money and takes their choice.

Last edited by alan; March 18, 2013 at 01:06 PM.
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Old March 18, 2013, 12:57 PM   #37
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legal? yes...pain in the bohonkus to get...equally yes - Lots of Hoops to jump thru too...
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:02 PM   #38
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I *really* like the finish on that Colt 601 pictured in post #32. Is there a name for that color? It almost looks like equal parts gold, bronze and silver.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:10 PM   #39
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JohnKSa:

The Glock 18 is a selective fire pistol. I doubt that there are many of them to be found in this country though. With that exception, are there any others, the Glock is a semiautomatic pistol. Being a fairly light weight piece, about 32 oz., I would think that a CZ-75 would be quite a handful. I think that the old Star Model 30M, which weighed 39 or 40 oz would be easier to handle in full automatic fire. I do not know if any were so made though. The Star Model 30M was a fine pistol though, all steel, classic double action, with a quite decent trigger.

Last edited by alan; March 18, 2013 at 01:16 PM.
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Old March 18, 2013, 02:17 PM   #40
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Pardon my input but some of these malfunctions being referred to here, isn't it a little inaccurate to say that they make the gun operate 'fully automatic'? Correct me if I am wrong, but these malfunctions are 'slam-fire', right? Releasing the trigger won't make the gun stop firing, it will fire until there is no more ammo to feed.
I have seen two guns that were malfunctioning as such, a Ruger Mark 2, and a Bushmaster AR.
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:19 PM   #41
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The BATFE has been known to go to great lengths to prosecute people for having any kind of weapon capable of illegally firing multiple rounds per trigger pull. At the range where I work we once had a BATFE agent bring in a confiscated semi-auto Steyr AUG. He had tons of ammo with him and he tried for hours to get it to fire a burst, but it was only shooting semi-auto. Finally, as can happen with a bullpup design, it eventually bump-fired one short burst. That was enough for him; he immediately packed up and left, presumably to write up his report on how the rifle was capable of illegally firing full-auto.
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:20 PM   #42
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Correct me if I am wrong, but these malfunctions are 'slam-fire', right?
Technically, you're correct. However, the law defines a machine gun as any gun firing more than one shot per trigger pull.
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:25 PM   #43
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it will fire until there is no more ammo to feed
Not always, sometime they just pop off two or three and then shoot fine for a couple, and then do their funny trick again.

I had this happen once with a KG-9. The first time was a real surprise, the second time I cleared it and traded it in for a Mini-14.
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:48 PM   #44
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How are these legal?

http://www.slidefire.com/

Must you keep pulling the trigger, or do you just hold it and hang on?
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:57 PM   #45
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Unless I'm mistaken, BATFE has already cleared the Slide-Fire stocks as legal. Technically, it's one bullet per trigger pull.
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:57 PM   #46
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They are legal for two reasons.

1. It's one shot for each pull of the trigger.

2. They are new and the Government just hasn't gotten around to adopting new legislation to cover them.

I find such videos a little funny. You can make it look easy but in fact it might not be so easy to actually make work reliably. In other words it might be an impractical solution.

Now I don't own one and haven't used one, but maybe someone here has. I would be interesting to know from someone with first hand experience just how reliable this functions.

The other thing is that "work around" inventions like these usually back fire badly. Because it get's around current legislation it means we will probably see new legislation and you never know what other things might get slipped into the new laws.
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Old March 18, 2013, 05:12 PM   #47
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Slide Fire stocks are legal because all they do is help you bump-fire the rifle; the trigger is still being pulled each time. Bump-firing is where you use the rifle's recoil to bounce it off your shoulder and back into the trigger. If you do it right and you have the right setup, you can get the rifle to fire pretty fast. All the Slide Fire stock does is allow the pistol grip and stock to spring back and forth, making bump-firing a lot easier and simulating full-auto fire.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the BATFE bans them at some point.

EDIT: Oops, I didn't see lcpipers post, where he already said basically the same thing I did.
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Old March 18, 2013, 05:37 PM   #48
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It's OK, great minds think alike and frequently at the same time of day it seems
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Old March 18, 2013, 07:41 PM   #49
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One of the mods here once postulated in regards to some asinine regulation, including SlideFire stocks, that those things were so cumbersome and unreliable, that it would be advantageous if criminals did indeed start to use them.
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Old March 18, 2013, 10:39 PM   #50
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Quote:
The Glock 18 is a selective fire pistol.
Indeed it is. I fired one Thursday. It was actually quite controllable although I'm not sure how practical it is.
Quote:
With that exception, are there any others, the Glock is a semiautomatic pistol.
Well, it's a little different than the AR-15/CZ75 situation.

The G17 is a semi-automatic pistol, and all the other Glock pistols are semi-automatic, but the select fire Glock, has its own separate model number--18.

In like manner, there is a variant of the Beretta 92 pistol, the Beretta 93R, that is a 3 round burst automatic. Like the Glock 18, it is designated by a different model number than the semi-automatic Beretta pistols making that situation different from the AR15/CZ75 situation.

The 1911 has been made (both conversions and factory experimentals) in full auto variants, but it's different as well in that there hasn't ever been a full auto production 1911 as far as I know.

The CZ75, however, has been made in both semi-automatic and fully automatic versions, both, to my knowledge, designated with the same model number--CZ75.

But, like the AR-15, the CZ75 (the small number of select fire versions of both notwithstanding) is still considered to be a semi-automatic firearm.
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