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Old March 16, 2013, 11:06 AM   #26
jolly1
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In my country informal requirement for hunting rifle is to make a group of maximum 4-5 cm at some distance. Assumed that target is most common European big game (a roe buck), and delivering a lethal shoulder shot.
The size of group will also determine useful range of a rifle in hunting for individual hunter and his (scoped) rifle.

Two inch group is not much of a accuracy requirement, if we are speaking of at least 100 meters ranges. As per our law - maximum range in big game hunting is 150 meters, in order to prevent wounding of animal

Reading it other way - extreme accuracy is not expected from a hunting high power rifle.

On the other hand, long range target shooting equipment will need to have sub MOA accuracy.
The competition rules say that you will fire 10 rounds in 10 minutes at target at given ranges (usually 300 and 600 meters). So, the competitors will surely want their barrels not to heat up too much, as thermal dilatation of barrel may change ballistics of rifle with bad effect on target. That's another characteristic required. However, we are still talking about sport.

In professional sniper rifle, I guess - one shot - one kill rule applies, so barrel heating is not an issue in repetitive shots, but sub MOA accuracy should apply, especially for long range shooting.

In conclusion, I would say - sub MOA accuracy for longe range target shooting and sniping. Plus MOA accuracy for hunting.

Having said that, this will define another difference: high performance rifles will cost higher with their expensive barrels, then medium class rifles for hunting with hammered barrels of cheaper production.
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Old March 16, 2013, 12:58 PM   #27
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I think people should say "Sniper's Rifle" rather than Sniper Rifle... Because really, it refers more to the person than to the rifle.
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Old March 16, 2013, 01:25 PM   #28
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I think Thump_rrr hit it on the head. A big differentiator is weight.

When you're hunting, you're going to be carrying the rifle much more than shooting it, and you may be climbing with it, backpacking with it, and/or covering a lot of ground with it. The weight of the rifle is critical, and many hunters use bolt actions that are relatively lightweight...barrels, polymer stocks, etc.

Long-Range Precision Rifles tend to have barrels that are designed to minimize fluctuation and maximize consistency, they're thicker and heavier, they may have bipods and more complex optics, and there may be many other design aspects that tend to add weight to the weapon.

Any rifle can possibly serve either purpose - true. But for hunting deer and elk, especially at high altitudes in the Colorado Rockies where I hunted, a lighter rifle meant I could go further with it.

JMHO. YMMV.
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Old March 16, 2013, 02:20 PM   #29
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The way I look at it:

If you are a sniper (SWAT, military, ect,) then you have a sniper rifle
If you are a hunter then you have a hunting rifle
If you a sniper and you take you rifle you use for sniping hunting, it's a hunting rifle.

All that being said, when someone says sniper rifle I think of something like this,
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Old March 16, 2013, 05:58 PM   #30
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Two inch group is not much of a accuracy requirement,On the other hand, long range target shooting equipment will need to have sub MOA accuracy.............

In professional sniper rifle, I guess - one shot - one kill rule applies,
In conclusion, I would say - sub MOA accuracy for longe range target shooting and sniping. Plus MOA accuracy for hunting.
Not sure I agree with most of what you posted. Carlos Hathcock had a Model 70 target rifle that was in fact a 2 MOA rifle. He did quite well.

I really doubt Simo Häyhä's iron sighted Mosin was near that, he did quite will.

Military snipers are taught to aim center mass. The average width shoulder to shoulder of a soldier is 19 inches (hense the measurements chosen for the E Shillotte target 19 X 40).

A 2 MOA right is good on that target to 950 yards. The vital area of, lets say an antelope is about 8 inches. That same 2 MOA is only good for 400 yards.

To refine it further I use to with Alaska Natives to hunt seals in the Bering sea. Normally you only get a head shot on those little buggers bobbing around in the water, that's about 3 inches. The 2 MOA rifle is good for 100 yards. Try to get that close and the suckers dive.

LE Snipers or to be PC Counter snipers are taught head shots, (different ball game then military snipers). The round needs to be kept inside 4 inches to be effective. In theory thats 150 yards, BUT, you probably wont get that, you'll get a partical head behind a hostage, 1-2 inches if you're lucky. That brings you back to 100 yards or under.

I don't put much stock in MOA size, because as I posted several times, you see people posting sub MOA groups with their rifle all the time, but you see very few "Cleaned 1000 yard targets". The X-10 ring on the NRA 1000 yard target is 20 inches or 2 MOA.

So what does this mean?.......................ITS THE SHOOTER NOT THE RIFLE.

And its not only the ability to judge wind and other weather conditions. Best example here is the CMP GSM Vintage Military Matches that are shot at 100 or 200 yards. Wind 'n such is not a big handy cap here.

Just about any diecent surplus military rifle is good for 3.5 MOA, and that's the size of the targets used in the GSM matches, X-10 ring being 3.5 MOA. Again, very few cleaned targets.
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Old March 16, 2013, 06:08 PM   #31
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TexIndian hit it right on the head.
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Old March 16, 2013, 06:34 PM   #32
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I have never seen a model 70 heavy barrel, standard barrel, light barrel, light weight, or anything else that was 2MOA. They are much better than that.
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Old March 16, 2013, 07:15 PM   #33
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As a former Australian army sniper I get ticked off when people use the term sniper rifle because a sniper is someone who is highly trained and gone though a difficult course to earn the term sniper...
A sniper can be anyone sniping at you. You don't have to have grand training to be a sniper. There are trained people who have the title of sniper, but anyone can snipe and be considered a sniper. It is a regular occurrence for NATO forces to report a "sniper" anytime being fired on from a position of concealment. So even an untrained Taliban fighter with an AK47 can snipe.

Remember, the origin of the word pertains to being able to "hunt" snipes.

Sniper rifle or hunter rifle - marketing. Funny how lots of "sniper" rifles used by the military have been nothing more than hunting rifles applied in warfare.
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Old March 16, 2013, 07:29 PM   #34
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I have never seen a model 70 heavy barrel, standard barrel, light barrel, light weight, or anything else that was 2MOA. They are much better than that.
As much as I agree with that statement I didn't want my bias for the Model 70 Winchester to cloud the issue.
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Old March 16, 2013, 07:30 PM   #35
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The military and police have sniper rifles.

We have varminters and target rifles.
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Old March 16, 2013, 08:25 PM   #36
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I am starting to think that the cosmetics and/or the caliber are what defines it, as much as I hate to admit that cosmetics determines a type of rifle (AWB). Like the Barrett .50, purely for sniping. And to whoever said that a hunting rifle will be carried all over mountains and sniper rifle not, a sniper walks super long distances over difficult terrain often to set up their shot. They don't just hop out of the Humvee and take pot shots at a HVT.

Also, I don't know if I agree with Gary above, because we certainly aren't using a varmint rifle to kill moose, and I have heard many a story about some old, beat up 30-06 taking one down, certainly not a target rifle.
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:48 AM   #37
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Kraig's comments on accuracy in rifles snipers use is credible. More detailed history of the best ones ever used follows.

The United States Marine Corps purchased 373 Model 70 National Match rifles (ones with a clip guide in the receiver bridge) in May, 1942. Although the Marine Corps officially used only the M1 Garand and the 1903 Springfield as sniper rifles during the Second World War, "many Winchester Model 70s showed up at training camps and in actual field use during the Pacific campaign. These rifles had 24-inch sporter barrels chambered for .30-06 Springfield. These rifles had serial numbers in the 41000 to 50000 range and were fitted with leaf sights and checkered stocks with steel butt plates, one-inch sling swivels, and leather slings. It has been reported that some of these rifles were equipped with 8X Unertl telescopic sights for limited unofficial use as sniper weapons on Guadalcanal and during the Korean War.

Many of the surviving rifles, after reconditioning with heavier Douglas barrels and new stocks between 1956 and 1963 at the Marine Corps match rebuild shop in Albany, Georgia, were fitted with 8X Unertl sights from M1903A1 sniper rifles. The reconditioned rifles were used in competitive shooting matches; and the United States Army purchased approximately 200 new Model 70 National Match Rifles with medium heavy barrels for match use between 1954 and 1957. Many of the reconditioned Marine Corps match rifles were used by Marine Corps snipers during the early years of the Vietnam war with M72 match ammunition loaded with 173-grain boat-tailed bullets. A smaller number of the Army's Model 70 rifles also saw combat use by Army snipers; and some were equipped with silencers for covert operations in Southeast Asia. These Model 70 rifles never achieved the status of a standard military weapon; but were used until replaced by the Remington Model 700 series bolt-action rifles which became the basis for the M40 series sniper rifle.

I believe Hathcock's Win. 70 was one of those highlighted above. The ammo was standard M72 match ammo with an accuracy spec at 600 yards of 3.5" mean radius; about 10 inches (1.67 MOA) extreme spread. Some lots of M72 would shoot close to 1 MOA extreme spread at 600 yards in arsenal test barrels. Winchester factory barrels would shoot that ammo almost as accurate. I've heard mixed reports on the Douglas barreled ones accuracy.

I've seen some accuracy specs for sniper rifles and none of them are smaller than 1 MOA at 1000 yards. Without handloading ammo matched dimensionally for a given barrel, I doubt anyone could produce accuracy better than 1.25 MOA at 1000 yards. No sniper I know of uses ammo custom loaded for his rifle; it's all mass produced to be easily interchangeable across several in an organization.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:23 AM   #38
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That "guy" is an idiot.

Sniper vs Hunting is a meaningless debate for reasons listed...

Also, I believe that the guy whom compared it to the "assault rifle" smear campaign is spot on.

Quote:
Sniper
A sniper is a highly trained marksman who operates alone, in a pair, or with a team to maintain close visual contact with the enemy and engage targets from concealed positions or distances exceeding the detection capabilities of enemy personnel. Wikipedia
Feedback
Looks like if you replace "enemy" with "deer", this is the definition of deer hunter.
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:53 AM   #39
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Also, I don't know if I agree with Gary above, because we certainly aren't using a varmint rifle to kill moose, and I have heard many a story about some old, beat up 30-06 taking one down, certainly not a target rifle.
LOL, you can call your rifle a "George." It doesn't care what you call it or how you classify it. You can certainly take a moose with a varmint rifle. I have a .45-70 varmint rifle and use it for a varmint called Sus scrofa. Folks have used the 1895 .45-70 for moose for well over 100 years.


Quote:
The military and police have sniper rifles.
Just curious, when the police snipers have to shoot animals, do the sniper rifles they use become hunting rifles?

Sniper bovicide
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and...a4bcf887a.html
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Old March 17, 2013, 12:55 PM   #40
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I'm sorry, but I can't consider the M-1107 a sniper rifle at the exclusion of others.

The rifle was designed for the anti-material role. It had and continues to serve in the long range sniping role, but all the guys in our Sniper Section preferred the M-110 or M-24, with the .300 Winchester Magnum and .338 Lapua replacing the .50 BMG in the long range role.

I've said it before, and it bears repeating, if the gun grabbers are targeting semi-automatic rifles today, so-called assualt weapons, then tomorrow they will be after bolt action rifles, the so-called sniper rifles.

A sniper doesn't have to have a super special scoped rifle to be a sniper, just like the guy with a scope on the top of his AR-15 isn't automatically a sniper.
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Old March 17, 2013, 01:31 PM   #41
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I'm sorry, but I can't consider the M-1107 a sniper rifle at the exclusion of others.

The rifle was designed for the anti-material role. It had and continues to serve in the long range sniping role, but all the guys in our Sniper Section preferred the M-110 or M-24, with the .300 Winchester Magnum and .338 Lapua replacing the .50 BMG in the long range role.
The M-107 is a variant of the M82A1. It was NOT designed for the anti-material role. The US Military originally adopted the M82A1 for such a role (actually for EOD), but that was not what it was "designed for."
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/...per-rifle.aspx

By RB's own words, he designed the 82A1 because he wanted his own .50 caliber weapon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLBmc-Lgtb0

There is a huge distinction between the conception of design and application and this is a clear example. Even if an anti-material role was the design intent, intent does not matter. Lots of items are designed with a given intent that turn out to be quite useful for other intents.

The bottom line is that the M82A1 and M107 like every other rifle out there are simply designed for the purpose of launching projectiles down range in a controlled manner. Whether they are shot at materials or humans is the application, NOT the design.

Specifically see 4:30 in the video for the design-intended application of the platform. It was NOT designed as an anti-material military weapon at all.
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Old March 17, 2013, 01:39 PM   #42
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Double Naught Spy, that's what I intending to state, that the rifle was originally adopted in the EOD/anti-material role.

The rifle, from my understanding, and this maybe incorrect, was that the first users of the Barrett were EOD teams.
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:02 PM   #43
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Okay, it still doesn't matter what it was adopted for originally, that does not negate its use in other areas or reclassification.

And, the Swedes apparently didn't adopt it as an anti-material weapon, only the Marines as a SASR (special application scoped rifle). It is now the M107 LRSR (long range sniper rifle). Go figure.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19882700/I...per-Rifle-LRSR
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:05 PM   #44
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Heck, it took me forever to stop wanting to call it the M-82A2.

As an aside, the only time I ever saw a Barrett (HA! call it by it's given name) employed was by an EOD guy engaging a suspicious looking package along side a road that we were going to have drive by.
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:14 PM   #45
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Just curious, when the police snipers have to shoot animals, do the sniper rifles they use become hunting rifles?
I would say no, because the police sniper rarely has to hunt the animal. Animal control rifle? maybe?

Sniper rifles are rifles used for sniping. No matter what they were intended for originally, if they were used for sniping, then you could call them sniper rifles.

There are purpose built sniper rifles, but a rifle need not be purpose built to be a sniper rifle.

A maker or marketer can hang any name on their product they wish, so that is another caetgory of sniper rifle.

Likewise, the term "sharpshooter" doesn't just apply to people shooting Sharps rifles...
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Old March 17, 2013, 03:27 PM   #46
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Just curious, when the police snipers have to shoot animals, do the sniper rifles they use become hunting rifles?
I carried a sniper rifle in LE, a Remington 700 BDL Varmint in 223. Also had to shoot a lot of animals, mainly moose after vehicle/moose incounters. I didn't use the rifle, I used a Model 28 Smith in 357.

It wasn't a sniper rifle or hunting rifle, it was a service revolver.
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:21 PM   #47
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From Wikipedia: "The verb "to snipe" originated in the 1770s among soldiers in British India where a hunter skilled enough to kill the elusive snipe was dubbed a "sniper".[2] The term sniper was first attested in 1824 in the sense of the word "sharpshooter".[2]"

There obviously has been some evolutionary change in usage during the decades.
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Old March 17, 2013, 11:50 PM   #48
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if you are a member of a NATO military then yes you have to use FMJ
.....No, you don't.... OTM ammunition is allowed, and it is used in 5.56, 7.62x51, and other calibers.

What NATO members are required to use is ammunition that is designed not to inflict undue damage (by expanding in tissue). OTM (open tip match) ammunition is designed to have better external ballistics than FMJ ammo, but have similar terminal ballistic performance. 77gr OTM ammunition is currently in use in 5.56x45mm and 175 gr (OTM) M118LR ammunition is in use in 7.62x51mm.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:27 AM   #49
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I carried a sniper rifle in LE, a Remington 700 BDL Varmint in 223
How illustrative of the issue at hand. The Remington 700 BDL you called a sniper rifle is billed as a great hunting rifle by Remington and has been for the last 40 years.
http://www.remington.com/products/fi...l-700-bdl.aspx

Quote:
Heck, it took me forever to stop wanting to call it the M-82A2.
The M82A2 is what I think is the coolest version of the rifle. It is a semi-auto bullpup version that is much more readily fired offhand than the M82A1.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...QEwAQ&dur=4567
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Old March 18, 2013, 07:44 AM   #50
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Back in the late 1960's when the US military folks went looking for a new "sniper" rifle platform, the one preferred by the top level marksmen and snipers was not picked. Didn't matter that it was more reliable, more easily maintained and had fast and easy parts replacement in the field should they go bad, more reliable in feeding (especially in rapid fire situations), had a receiver over twice as rigid and stayed put in epoxy bedding, a more positive safety and had established an unbeated track record for performance in competion. That's what the folks using them back then wanted.

But the rifle's maker was in dire financial straits and the flag ranked powers at hand did not want such a company to provide it. They wanted a company that would probably be around for a long time. So they picked the Rem. 700 over the Win. 70.
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