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Old March 15, 2013, 04:18 PM   #26
Gaerek
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You can look at that a few ways. You are probably more likely to hit someone with the rounds that you miss your intended target with. So if expanding ammo is more lethal then you going to do more damage if you hit someone accidentally.
Wha....!?

I have to be honest...I've never seen this argument before, and it defies both logic, and what actually happens in real life. Let's say you're right, you're more likely to miss than hit (though I completely disagree that you're more likely to hit a bystander with a miss than you are to hit your target). Let's assign a 30% hit rate. That's 70% of your rounds that go past your intended backstop with HP ammo. Using FMJ, most hits, are going to go through and through. So now, a number more than 70% are going past your intended backstop. It'll probably be over 90% of your rounds are now going past your backstop. You are responsible for every round you put down range. I'd much rather have 70% of my rounds going down range, than 90%+.

Lets not forget that if you're using JHP ammo, you'll likely need fewer shots to stop an attacker, thereby sending fewer rounds down range.

In Mas Ayoob's book, Gun Digest Book of concealed carry, he breaks this down much better than I can, and he uses real numbers, not made up numbers. The conclusion he draws is that you are less likely to hit/kill bystanders with JHP rounds than FMJ rounds.

There's a reason that basically all professionals and experts in the field of self defense say you should use JHP rounds. They are safer for everyone involved, except for the target of them.

Last edited by Gaerek; March 15, 2013 at 04:23 PM.
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Old March 15, 2013, 04:35 PM   #27
481
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Originally Posted by glock country:
Hi!

As the title says, I´m searching for a non hp ammo, in 9mm Luger for self defense purposes.
Here in Austria, you only get HP´s for hunting and sport shooting purposes. I know, it´s really strange, but this is fact, and I don´t want to discuss the stupid gun laws in our country.

What from the following types of ammo would YOU choose:

100grs. Fiocchi JSP-Flat (very hot loaded, and the ammo of our police)
93grs. Fiocchi EMB (expanding, non hp bullet, concerned about penetration depth)
124grs. FMJ round nouse (for example Fiocchi, Geco, etc...)

My handuns are: Ruger LC9, Glock 19 and 26.

Or have you any other suggestions??

Thank you very much for your replies!

Greetings
If I found myself restricted to carrying nothing but non-expanding ammo, I'd pick the most reliable and accurate FMJ that I could find and go with that.

They're all going to produce HUGE penetration, so the choice goes to reliability and accuracy, in that order.

The Fiocchi EMB might be an answer, but it is hard to say as that particular design has never struck me as being one that offers reliable expansion. If it does, then it is certainly preferable to the FMJs provided it can provide enough penetration to reach vital organs under the conditions you are operating under.
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Old March 15, 2013, 04:51 PM   #28
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There's a reason that basically all professionals and experts in the field of self defense say you should use JHP rounds. They are safer for everyone involved, except for the target of them.
I would have no issue with using FMJ ammo. Apart from that i would have no choice as expanding ammo is not allowed here for self defence. I also think the effectiveness of expanding ammo is questionable don't believe everything ammo manufacturers tell you when it comes to handgun ammo.

Missing the intended target isn't as uncommon as you seem to think.

Quote:
Some may have been shot accidentally by police officers who responded immediately,” Bloomberg said." In other words of the (at least) 11 people shot yesterday, 2 of whom fatally, the NYPD was responsible for 10 of those shot, 9 of whom were literally "collateral damage" in a non-shoot out, and the NYPD, in missing their designated target
PS there is no perfect round but on the list of things you want in ammo penetration is number one. Sometimes you are going to get over penetration. There have being cases were expanding ammo has not penetrated enough the Miami shootout for example.

Last edited by manta49; March 15, 2013 at 05:18 PM.
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Old March 15, 2013, 04:58 PM   #29
Michigan Big Iron
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Get a .45

If you must use a solid bullet, get a .45, it's been doing the job since 1911!


Lock and Load!
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Old March 15, 2013, 05:29 PM   #30
thedudeabides
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230gr 45 ACP.

At that caliber, it doesn't matter if it's JHP or not.
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Old March 15, 2013, 05:58 PM   #31
manta49
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230gr 45 ACP.

At that caliber, it doesn't matter if it's JHP or not.
I would agree if you don't think that a 9MM hole is big enough get a .45 and if that's not big enough a .50.
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Old March 15, 2013, 11:58 PM   #32
KyJim
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There have being cases were expanding ammo has not penetrated enough the Miami shootout for example.
Poor example. The 115 gr. Winchester Silvertip traveled through Platt's right upper arm and through most of the lung, stopping about inch short of the heart. The round caused Platt's lung to collapse and was likely the fatal round. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm. It just didn't kill Platt fast enough. He was a well-trained, highly motivated bad guy. The shootout showed that handguns are inadequate in those types of situations unless you hit the central nervous system. Sure, another inch would have been better in this specific situation but you can't bank too heavily on one bullet in one incident.
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Old March 16, 2013, 12:32 AM   #33
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Just carry target rounds (FMJ) if I was hit with a 9 MM of any round I would no longer be a threat! Just saying...
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Old March 16, 2013, 03:25 AM   #34
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I´ve already considered the .45 ACP, but I would like to stick with the 9mm, because I train a lot, so ammo costs are a huge factor.

I´ve read a several articles about wound ballistic, and I think I could say the basic conclusion is, that shot placement, reliability and sufficient penetration are far more important than expansion, when you have to defend yourself with a handgun.

So I think I will go for the Fiocchi 100grs JSP Flat. I know, that this ammo works perfectly in my glock, and the ammo costs are affordable, so it´s possible to practice with it a lot.

By the way: Is it true that the ammo costs are currently exploding in the US? Is this because of the person called "double barrel" Biden?
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Old March 16, 2013, 10:51 AM   #35
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Good choice and good synopsis. Yes we have a shortage and high prices here. My opinion of 'why' is here, if you'd care to read it.

http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/the-...amine-of-2013/
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Old March 16, 2013, 11:18 AM   #36
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Very interesting article, but at the same time I´m a little bit worried. Because all the trends in the US will come with a little delay to europe.

You mentioned the 7,62x39 cartridge. 25$ per box????? This is ridiculous!!! Here you will pay for a box of Tula approximately 7€ which is about 9$.

For example, you will get 1000 rounds 9mm FMJ Geco here for about 190 $.

I have to admit that I´m a huge fan of the US, but at the same time I´ve always wondered how a man with the middle name "HUSSEIN" could become the president of the US, twice!!??

Here in Austria we have a saying:
"Only the stupid cattle chooses his own slaughterer"
(hope that the translation is right )
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Old March 16, 2013, 12:42 PM   #37
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That b$25 per box 7.62x39 ammo was nothing more than gun show price gouging. He didn't sell much (if any) in two days. In the last couple of months, I've picked up 400 rounds from various sources including private sellers; haven't paid over $5.50 a box. You just have to be patient, shop carefully and conserve your ammo for the time being.

AS to Obama getting a second term... I was amazed when he got elected the first time and disheartened when he was reelected. For this to have occurred, a substantial number of gun owners either voted for him or didn't vote at all. I'm sorry to say that a substantial percentage of my fellow America gun owners are a little daft in these matters, Glock Country. Our last anti-gun president we had got two terms as well.

Best wishes to you and your fellow Austrians.
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Old March 16, 2013, 01:14 PM   #38
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Sure, another inch would have been better in this specific situation but you can't bank too heavily on one bullet in one incident
The FBI did that's why the .40 came about.
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