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 March 16, 2013, 07:46 AM #26 PA-Joe Senior Member   Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: NEPA Posts: 861 Are you using the same brand of dies and shellholders? Each manufacturer uses a slightly different bench height on their shellholder. An easy solution would be to sand a little off the top of the shellholder.
March 16, 2013, 07:51 AM   #27
ScottRiqui
Senior Member

Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
Quote:
 Yes, Mr. Guffey, there is a conversion for fractional adjustments converted to thousandths. Multiply the fraction of die rotation by 1/14 and the answer's exact. 1/4 x 1/14 = 0.0178571428571429". .018" for 1/4 turn of the die is close enough for reloaders' use. 1/7th of a turn moves the die 0.0102040816326531"; .010" for all practical reloading use.
Exactly. The only way that a "distance per fractional revolution" conversion isn't going to be accurate is if the thread pitch isn't consistent. And if the thread pitch isn't consistent, the die would bind up and wouldn't thread.

 March 16, 2013, 08:16 AM #28 mehavey Senior Member   Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 4,483 I'm going to ask about the elephant in the room: > Does the case as sized fit back into > the chamber, and the bolt close ? " If so, the sizing die has likely done all the sizing it can on a at/below-minimum headspace case, and the case shoulder is never touched.
March 16, 2013, 08:34 AM   #29
Bart B.
Senior Member

Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 6,318
Quote:
 Are you using the same brand of dies and shellholders? Each manufacturer uses a slightly different bench height on their shellholder. An easy solution would be to sand a little off the top of the shellholder.
Good question.

I've found no more than a .0015" spread across 3 or 4 makes of standard shell holder heights. That's well within reasonable tolerances.

In a conversation with an RCBS rep some years ago, he said the industry standard for rimless bottleneck case full length sizing dies is about +/- .002".

All of which to me means the spread across case headspace on such cases when the die's set to touch the shell holder with the press ram at its peak will be between .005" and .006".

But like barrel chambers and new brass headspace, there's sometimes over or under size die sizing chambers and shell holder heights.

All of which, for those wanting close tolerances on what they do, a case headspace measuring gauge is essential. And something to accurately measure the change in die height in the press.

One guy I knew years ago, before such gauges were made, measured his full length sizing die setting in the press with a depth micrometer or caliper measuring the height of the die top to either the lock ring on the die or the steel bushing flat that the die screwed into. 'Twas easy and cheap to make a .0043" change if that's what was needed.
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 March 16, 2013, 09:01 AM #30 243winxb Senior Member   Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,505 Do your own Testing- Savage & Remington Bolt Actions - My testing shows the shoulder is not needed in some rifles for the firing pin to set off the primer. Case head is held by the extractor. My testing also shows the shoulder may be set back as much as .006" from the firing pin strike ( if shoulder makes contact with the chamber).This requires a loose fitting extractor & maximum head to datum brass. The ejector keeps the brass in contact with the extractor. My testing shows the head to datum measurement may get shorter on firing. My testing also shows 1/2 sizing of the neck will produce smaller groups when using FL sizing bushing dies. The unsized* part of the neck fully expands to the chamber in 3 or more firings, even in a factory chamber. People that think they know it all, may not know a thing. This may include me. Last edited by 243winxb; March 16, 2013 at 01:14 PM. Reason: sized* spelling
 March 16, 2013, 04:07 PM #32 reynolds357 Senior Member   Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 3,499 Bart, I know that Mauser type extractors and WBY Mark V extractors will hold a cartridge well enough for the firing pin to ignite the primer. I have built wild cats off both that I crammed a bunch of paper on top of the powder instead of using a bullet to fire form. The only thing holding the case was the extractor. I am quite sure that if I was trying to shoot groups with my headspace being held by the extractor my groups would be sub broad side of barn.
 March 16, 2013, 06:09 PM #34 reynolds357 Senior Member   Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 3,499 How is a rimless beltless case fire forming? When you get time, take a Mauser and cut a case in half with a pipe cutter and see if a federal primer will fire. Will have to pick the case up out of the magazine. My bet is a Federal will fire and a Remington will not.
 March 16, 2013, 07:06 PM #35 Bart B. Senior Member   Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 6,318 How much firing pin protrusion from the bolt face can I have doing this excellent test you proposed? In my tests with a 98 Mauser action, I slid the case into the bolt face directly; didn't use a magazine fed one. __________________ US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153 Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master NRA Smallbore Prone Master
 March 16, 2013, 08:45 PM #36 reynolds357 Senior Member   Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 3,499 How ever much the the rifle has. My Sweede has a lot. I plan on trying it myself Monday when I get to my shop.
 March 17, 2013, 06:03 AM #37 Bart B. Senior Member   Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 6,318 One other claim by some is the extractor holds the case head against the bolt face. Against? Pulled back against? Where does the force come from to pull it back? I've seen a lot of extractor styles and none of them had any pull-back force; only sideways. To say nothing of how hard it might be for a rim to slide behind an extractor being pulled back enough that the space between its contact surface and the bolt face was smaller than the rim thickness. __________________ US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153 Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master NRA Smallbore Prone Master
 March 17, 2013, 05:06 PM #38 reynolds357 Senior Member   Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 3,499 You try it tomorrow and Ill try it. You might be right. If you are, I am going to have to do some serious puzzling on how I got that brass fire formed. I have always assumed it was extractor. If not, I have a mystery to solve.
March 18, 2013, 11:56 AM   #41
Bart B.
Senior Member

Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 6,318
Mr. Guffey, isn't this:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...2&d=1259689721

...the solution to your remarks below?
Quote:
 The die does not have a degree wheel, there is no conversion for fractional adjustments converted to thousandths. When adjusting the die there are only wild guestimates of a turn, I know, it has always sounded impressive with the 14 turns per inch.... On the press and or on the die, there is no indicator, or a pointer or draw-to-line, again, there is no degree wheel, there is no fractional index on the press and or die, again, there are height gages, there are feeler gages, there are verifying tools, and that part where the poor helpless reloader can not count of the threads being 14 per inch, poor helpless reloader does not have a tool for verifying and of does not posses the skill to determine if the threads are 14 per inch.
I and many people believe it is. And I think the vast majority of reloaders are smart enough to figure this out.

I put this info in post 3 in this thread.
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