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Old March 17, 2013, 02:27 PM   #1
ShootingNut
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Selling Your Reloads

Just curious, if anybody sells their reloads. Not commercially, but just
to friends or club members.
And if so, what might be the potential liability in doing so?
It has run through my mind, as I have over 10K in my various
calibers on the shelf. Didn't intend to "stock" that much, it just
kind of "sneeks up on you", when you have that old habit of picking
brass up at the range. I enjoy reloading so hate to quit for a while,
to reduce my stockpile.
SN
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:30 PM   #2
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Only if you have the required FFL Manufacturer's license!
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:43 PM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
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You can not "sell or distribute reloads for the purposes of livelihood or profit" without being duly licensed by the ATF.
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:50 PM   #4
ShootingNut
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So, does that say a retired person can sell at cost (no labor),
not as livelihood or making any profit?
I realize the day and age we live in, and bottom line I suppose
is that it's not worth the potential risk.
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:57 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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Here is the ATF's FAQ on the subject, bold and underlines added by me:


Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:59 PM   #6
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Thanks, that pretty much says it all, "Personal Use".
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Old March 17, 2013, 04:03 PM   #7
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For an insurance claim, if you do the work yourself you can not legally "profit." You CAN legally charge the company a reasonable hourly wage(as in what someone would pay an employee to do the same work). I imagine that distinction is the result of court cases. Not sure it applies to reloading though. I don't thing The ATFE FAQ limits it to personal use, rather only specifies personal use does not require a license. You can obviously give reloads to a friend for free and that is not personal use.

As far as civil liability, if someone gets hurt shooting one of your reloads, I don't think you have any sort of civil protection. If you charge for the reload in any way, even a trade of services or such, you are probably in more trouble. I don't see how you could even come up with a disclaimer to sign if selling the ammo or manufacturers would have done it.

I belong too a club and brought up purchasing a nice reloading set-up for anyone to use. People were at first worried, but we let people run club owned saws on club property and even let them borrow saws for home use along with heavy equipment. It was generally agreed that was at least as bad as providing a press without dies or components. We haven't made the purchase yet and may not.

I wouldn't want to be the test case claiming I charged an hourly wage that was funneled back into shooting, so not a livelihood.
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Last edited by johnwilliamson062; March 17, 2013 at 04:15 PM.
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Old March 17, 2013, 04:08 PM   #8
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Seems to be a gray area between "purpose of livelihood and profit" and "personal use". What if a person reloads ammo say for club members or friends at cost. Certainly would not be for "purpose of livelihood and profit" but isn't for "personal use" either.

On the other hand the liability aspect is a place I certainly wouldn't want to go. I'm probably far enough out on a limb as it is just by teaching friends how to re-load and letting them use my equipment to load their own though, knock on wood, hasn't been a mishap worse than a failure to fire among a half dozen friends and thousands of rounds.
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Old March 17, 2013, 04:19 PM   #9
ShootingNut
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Well, life's too short to spend a day in court, with an attorney grilling you
because your "customer" was injured shooting your reloads. Or, getting into a [spitting] match with the Feds.
I am extremely confident in the quality of my reloads, but you never
know what firearm might be used with your reload, or how safety conscious
your "customer" may be.
I'll just have to hit the range more often, and shoot more rounds!
SN

Last edited by Spats McGee; March 17, 2013 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Removing profanity
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:44 PM   #10
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Isn't worth the possible 10 years in Club Fed, $250,000 fine and lifetime ban on all gun related things.................
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:44 PM   #11
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Turn the question around

"What if" questions sometimes help to reveal the borders of a gray area:

What if someone with a loading setup hired you to load rounds (to his specifications) for his own use? Where would civil liability be? Where would licensing be required? You are not selling your reloads, you are a hired hand.

Does this question clear anything up or make it easier see the limits of legality? Or just show a new twist that might illuminate the issues?

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Old March 17, 2013, 10:20 PM   #12
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Trade for stuff.

That being said. There are really only 2 people that I trust with reloads outside of someone with the proper FFL. One has since passed away.
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:21 PM   #13
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Obviously everyone can make a personal determination on whether they fall under the Fed requirements.

Guidance on this would seem like a good topic for a sticky addressed by the site and forum as an entity, focusing on the civil liabilities an individual would face in the event of an accident, or what information they used in making such decisions.
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Old March 18, 2013, 12:16 PM   #14
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When I started to think about reloading, I asked one of my coworkers who has been reloading for 20+ years for advise. One of the first things he told me is that he does not reload for anyone but himself. He made a point about it and it stuck with me. Just makes good old common sense to me regardless of what the law says. So will I give my buds a few rounds to shoot at the range? Sure, but not 10,000 rounds!!
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Old March 18, 2013, 12:24 PM   #15
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Dondor makes a great point--by trading reloads for something else it becomes more difficult for anyone to claim you're reloading for livelihood or profit. Now, if you're trading thousands of rounds of ammo for basics like your food or your rent, then it would be pretty easy to show reloading for livelihood, so it depends on what, and how much you're trading.

That said, the idea of someone else shooting my reloads sort of gives me the willies. I'd be worrying far too much about whether I made a mistake in my loading process that might cause an accident.

Mike
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Old March 18, 2013, 12:32 PM   #16
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I don't think, and I think there is a preponderance of case law related to other activities to supporting me on this, that bartering is going to make it any more legal. What it may do is make it easier to conceal the volume of your activity. IF you are bartering a value of $1000 dollars or selling for $1000 dollars cash won't make any difference beyond being to argue the value was really only $500 and such.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Seems to be a gray area between "purpose of livelihood and profit" and "personal use". What if a person reloads ammo say for club members or friends at cost. Certainly would not be for "purpose of livelihood and profit" but isn't for "personal use" either.
That 'grey' area has already been determined by the governing bodies (ATF, DOJ, Treasury, State Department) to not be so grey. If you charge only for materials, you may not have to pay the excise tax (if applicable), but you still need to be licensed.


And, don't forget...
If you're manufacturing anything under the "Small Arms" umbrella, you have to have an appropriate business license and be in a location where zoning ordinances allow it.

In addition, you have to be ITAR registered ($2,250 / year).
Any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls.” (Department of State / Directorate of Defense Trade Controls)

Ammunition falls under "defense articles", and even just cast lead bullets are "ammunition".
Penalties for failing to register are steep. At best, you'll lose your FFL, if you have one. If you don't have an FFL, you don't have any bargaining chips and will pay and/or do time.
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Old March 18, 2013, 02:37 PM   #18
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Legal is one aspect...and I won't minimize that issue ...

But I think your bigger issue is Insurance. We all get our Liability Insurance from our HomeOwners or Condo or Renters Insurance policies.

--- but the issue here is "as a business" ...and it doesn't mean you have to do it for profit, even if you break even or lose money....it still might be considered a business....and most homeowners insurance policies ( and they vary by company, and by state ) ....but a lot of policies, don't give you any coverage "as a business"...for Liability.

So someone gets hurt, they blow up a gun, etc...you'd be on your own. You'd feel terrible ...but no insurance would make it even worse.

My policy / I load for my own use, my kids and grandkids ...and I may give a few rounds to someone - or let someone shoot a few rounds thru my guns...but I don't barter or sell anything to my buddies ( and they've all asked from time to time ). I'd feel really bad if something happended..even though like you, I'm 100% confident in my loads...its not worth it !!
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Old March 18, 2013, 02:48 PM   #19
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It's already been settled by the IRS that barter is the same as cash exchange (there used to be large organized work exchange clubs that they shut down as being a tax dodge). So I doubt the rest of the government will see it any differently.

Note that the exact same thread question was started a few hours later. Too late to merge them now without causing confusion, but I'll suggest you read the other one before replying to this one as your intended contribution may already have been made there.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=519981
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