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Old April 15, 2013, 01:53 PM   #51
ratshooter
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My uncle was a Ft Worth cop and killed one man while on duty. He killed him with the standard issue 158gr LRN given to cops in the mid to late sixties. He used a model 15 and killed the guy with one shot. He dropped right where he stood.

A LRN would not be my first pick but if its what I had and needed it right then you can bet I would use it. But I would prefer almost any other bullet shape for SD.

If you can find a box of Sellier&Bellot 158gr RNL pick up a box. This stuff is loaded hot. IIRC they list it on their site as getting 960fps and I beleive them. And it is NOT listed as +P ammo. I do wish it would occur to them to load some 158gr lead hollow points to the same velocity.
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Old April 15, 2013, 08:09 PM   #52
Sport45
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"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."
- Bob Hagel
That's Flat Top's signature line on the Marlin Owner's forum. If you substitute "cartridge" for "rifle" and "stop the threat" for "kill an animal" I think the same reasoning applies here.
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Old April 15, 2013, 08:40 PM   #53
orionengnr
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Quote:
The plain lead bullet is the most reliable projectile, it mushrooms consistently, and never breaks up".
Just curious...who said that?
It surely wasn't anyone I will ever take advice from.
What is a "plain lead bullet"?
--An RNL?
--A SWC?
--A LSWCHP?

The thread title refers to "Lead Round Nose Bullets For SD".

If that is a question, the answer is "No".

The Speer short-barreled .38+p JHP rounds are (IMO) the cream of the .38 crop.
Differing opinions welcomed. With evidence to back it up...
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Old April 16, 2013, 10:48 AM   #54
Colt46
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it's your life

If you can justify using an inferior load in your gun then I'm okay with it.
I do some pretty careful research(keeps gun writers employed) and then make a desicion that I feel comfortable with.
There may be situations where a round nose design will outperform a different load.
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Old April 17, 2013, 10:06 PM   #55
Malamute
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I dont need to add my opinion about RN bullets. Anyone thats shot much game with the standard RN stuff knows how pathetic they are, including 45 auto RN and 45 Colt RN. Seeing jack rabbits run off after body hits with RN bullets starts to get old, and leaves you wondering where all the legends came from about certain loads. Keith bullets have a dramatically different effect on game of all sizes, and the wounds, when autopsied, leave little doubt as to their comparative effectiveness.

Reagrding Hickock and his Navies,

Quote:
Quote:
Lead Round Nose bullets for S.D.?

Wild Bill Hickok used a brace of Navy Cap-n-Ball .36s using simple lead balls.

Once when 5 men accosted him in a barn he killed all five with them two guns (and no reloading.)

Of course he was a dead shot and had some real steady hands.

Deaf
Elmer Keith wrote that a couple Civil War vets he knew, that had both seen much action, stated that the Colts Navy pistol was a noticably better fight stopper than anything they had seen from a 38 spl. This was in the days when the RN load was about all that was available commercially. He said the round balls, being very soft, and driven to fairly high velocity with a full load in the Navies, had a pretty respectable performance on game in Keiths hands, and people judging from his sources. Both the Civil War vets had said the balls were better on men than the conical bullets in the Navies.
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Old April 18, 2013, 06:59 AM   #56
cocojo
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The 38 special round nose lead bullet was used for years in police work. Accuracy was important to get good results, which should be the case with all defensive ammo. Many here will argue the 158 rnl bullet because of profile and shape, yet carry a 45 with ball or a 32 acp or 380 with ball because of penetration and not think about it. How many hear ever carry a small 32 acp or 380 and use only ball ammo? I picture a long nitting needle going through a person front to back into a vital area, not a good day here. There is much better ammo out there, but accuracy "placement" and penetration is what works best. Many in the medical world have said that they can't tell any difference in a wounds tracks from a 32 or a 45 when ball or round nose lead is used.
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Old April 18, 2013, 08:26 AM   #57
salvadore
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Quote:
The Speer short-barreled .38+p JHP rounds are (IMO) the cream of the .38 crop.
Differing opinions welcomed. With evidence to back it up...
Orion, you want evidence to back up someone's preferred SD cartridge, but give none for yours.
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Old April 18, 2013, 08:39 PM   #58
Sport45
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Quote:
Many here will argue the 158 rnl bullet because of profile and shape, yet carry a 45 with ball or a 32 acp or 380 with ball because of penetration and not think about it. How many hear ever carry a small 32 acp or 380 and use only ball ammo?
My experience is that ball is recommended when better ammunition doesn't function well in your gun or expanding bullets don't give adequate penetration. Not because it otherwise better or as good as ammunition with expanding bullets.

Since revolvers aren't picky about bullet shape for feeding (for the first charge anyway) there's no reason to carry it loaded with LRN if you can afford something better.
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Old April 18, 2013, 08:54 PM   #59
SIGSHR
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Also one of the arguments against JHP bullets is that they are often defeated by thick clothing while an RNL or FMJ will still penetrate.
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Old April 19, 2013, 01:21 AM   #60
Sport45
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When a JHP is clogged by clothing it just acts like a solid and doesn't expand. No downside there.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:07 AM   #61
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Sure you can kill someone in self defense fight with LRN bullet, but isn't someone you are killing deserve something better and fancier? After all it's the last thing he gets! :-)))

On the serious note, I don't understand OP concern with the cost of more expensive ammo. Yes, "fancier" bullets can be up to $2 per round or even more, but how many self defense situations are we getting into? Why can't someone use LRN on the range and then reload something more effective when gun goes on the night stand?
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:19 AM   #62
Jim Rau
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What both 45 and AID are saying is correct. If you want to disregard 100 years of ballistic improvements use a non expanding bullet for self defense. But remember, stopping the fight is what is important, not how 'lethal' the bullet is, the two are not the same.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:22 AM   #63
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Not to hijack this thread...but that is what I am doing. In regard to lead bullets, it is notable that Elmer Keith designed his style of cast bullets with the intention of producing the most effective style of bullet. However, recent research has shown that the sharp shoulder only cuts a sharp hole in paper. When game animals and presumably human targets are struck, the sharp shoulder does not contact flesh. Such claims made, have been backed up by tests of applying bullet lube to the shoulder and shooting it into ballistic gel and presumably game. The recovered bullets will still have the bullet lube intact on the shoulder, where as, if it made contact with the flesh/ballistic gel, it should have been wiped away by the impact. Further, experiments have shown that the larger the meplate of the bullet, the bigger the effect on flesh, etc. Therefore, flat, large meplate on a cast bullet seems to be the feature most relative to effectiveness of lead bullets. They certainly are superior to Kieth Type bullets when it comes to reloading.
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Old April 19, 2013, 05:37 PM   #64
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This is off the lead round, but the cast wadcutter will cut wide holes with deep penetration. Buffalo Bore has a great round for a wadcutter.
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