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Old March 15, 2013, 04:51 PM   #26
JohnKSa
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Mr. Wright makes a good point that I hadn't remembered. Not only do the LRN bullets tend to make subcaliber holes (they push the tissue aside rather than tearing or cutting through it) they are also more likely to be deflected from their aimed course if they hit a relatively sturdy structure in the body. Semi-wadcutter/wadcutter bullets are less likely to be deflected and tend to cut full caliber holes through the target medium. Lead Hollowpoints make larger than caliber holes and are also less likely to be deflected than LRN bullets.
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Old March 15, 2013, 05:57 PM   #27
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For SD I either use a LSWCHP 158 +P round such as Remington or Buffalo Bore. A second choice would be Buffalo Bores 150 gr hard cast wadcutters. I like these better than the newer hollow points for a 38 special revolver.
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Old March 15, 2013, 11:49 PM   #28
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well as error prone as they may be in real life scenarios. you have to admit they are what the guns were designed for sightwise.

butyes,lrn can create an inferior wound on an aggressive opponent. BUT its better then mace, pepper spray, tear gas, stun guns and tasers are.
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Old March 15, 2013, 11:54 PM   #29
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you have to admit they are what the guns were designed for sightwise.
In a pistol, bullet design has little to do with the point of impact at typical handgun distances. That's determined by velocity and bullet weight. Regardless of bullet profile, all bullets of a given weight and fired at roughly the same velocity should have very similar points of impact from a given pistol.
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BUT its better then mace, pepper spray, tear gas, stun guns and tasers are.
A firearm will generally have more deterrent effect than non-lethal/less-lethal means, but that's neither here nor there as far as this discussion goes. There's really very little reason to choose LRN in a revolver for self-defense. Other bullet profiles are widely available--probably even easier to find for that matter.
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Old March 16, 2013, 12:04 AM   #30
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if you can find ammunition that is. if you load your own your slightly better off, but some of us have to use whats on the shef. if all the shelf has is round nose, its what you have to use. dont forget enough people have been killed with lrn to prove its better then a fist fight
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Old March 16, 2013, 12:20 AM   #31
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If it's all you can get then by all means use it.

But just about anything else you could get would be better. That's all we're saying.

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dont forget enough people have been killed with lrn to prove its better then a fist fight
Whether or not it kills is not an issue here. What is much more important is how fast it stops an aggressor. By comparison to other bullet shapes, LRN does not do well in that category.
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Old March 16, 2013, 01:33 AM   #32
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well ive seen the online police reports of guys hopped up on meth or crack needing multiple hits from shotgun slugs to drop
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Old March 16, 2013, 02:38 AM   #33
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well ive seen the online police reports of guys hopped up on meth or crack needing multiple hits from shotgun slugs to drop
If you take that to mean it really doesn't matter, then nothing we say will sway you. Load up with whatever you want and we'll do the same.
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Old March 16, 2013, 04:45 AM   #34
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well ive seen the online police reports of guys hopped up on meth or crack needing multiple hits from shotgun slugs to drop
That's true. You can have failures to stop with virtually any handheld weapon.

However, I have to say that the possibility of failure shouldn't encourage people to use projectiles that are known to be inferior for self-defense when other options are available.

If LRN is all you can get, then use it. If you can get anything else, practically anything else will perform better.
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Old March 16, 2013, 05:35 AM   #35
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if you load your own your slightly better off, but some of us have to use whats on the shef. if all the shelf has is round nose, its what you have to use. dont forget enough people have been killed with lrn to prove its better then a fist fight
I disagree, if you load your own you are vastly better off whether there is ammo on the shelf or not and if you cast your own even more so. This winter I cast and loaded 1,000 rds of .45acp at a cost of, I dunno, maybe $60.00. Handloaders are able to load up a few rounds of a bullet @ .43, 431, etc. with various powders and charges to find the most accurate load for whatever shooter he is testing.

The advantages are great, but it helps if you don't have a life.
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Old March 18, 2013, 08:52 AM   #36
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salvador, how easy it it to get powder or primers?
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Old March 18, 2013, 12:15 PM   #37
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Do not confuse lethality with incapacitation. Many more people that were shot died from the ensuing infection than the effects of the bullet. Penicillin was not truly discovered until 1928 and not mass produced until 1945.

I don't know about you, but if I must shoot in self defense I do not look forward to the infection being a determining cause of incapacitation.

This subject has been discussed before ad-nausium.
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Old March 18, 2013, 09:01 PM   #38
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Newton, not so bad in my area. Popular ammo is tougher, ,22lr, 9mm, 223 show up but don't last more than an hour or two. I try to stay stocked up, so I have lotsa powder and primers, 40lbs+ mayber 17,000 primers, 100s of lbs of wheel weights ...brass, bullets etc. When things settle down I'll replace what I'm using up now.

Having a stock of components has saved me a lot of headaches this time and 4 years ago too.
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Old April 11, 2013, 08:26 PM   #39
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The 38 LRN is not the best choice for self defense. That being said, I sure would not want to be shot with one (or with a 22 for that matter) A 12 gauge shot gun is a great defense weapon.
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Old April 11, 2013, 08:34 PM   #40
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The use of recreational drugs has been the main reason why the RNL is out of favor though I was told over 40 years ago-by a police chief-that if the first two don't stop the threat you keep pulling the trigger-"We're not carrying derringers!".
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Old April 11, 2013, 08:51 PM   #41
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The round profile does help with speed loaders, but that's the only advantage that comes to mind. Comes in handy when competing at the range.

If it were legal I'd pop a turkey with one so as to not damage as much meat, but around here it's only leagal to blow their heads off with a 12ga.

I do think lead bullets are great for SD, but as mentioned before a SWC will make a better hole.
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Old April 11, 2013, 09:10 PM   #42
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Lead Round Nose bullets for S.D.?
Wild Bill Hickok used a brace of Navy Cap-n-Ball .36s using simple lead balls.

Once when 5 men accosted him in a barn he killed all five with them two guns (and no reloading.)

Of course he was a dead shot and had some real steady hands.

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Old April 11, 2013, 09:16 PM   #43
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This thread reminds me of the 'Nyclad' bullets, which are dead-soft lead hollowpoints coated with nylon to prevent leading. Mas Ayoob has recommended them highly for snubbies. I've had a hard time finding them for a while, though.
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Old April 11, 2013, 09:19 PM   #44
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You have to ask what is "self defense". I know that the situations that I have had here in my house/garden/neighborhood, a round nose 22LR would not just make a difference for the better, but the required difference.

If I were in an actual gun fight, I might just want something else (probably a fast handling rifle). Sometimes self defense is a matter of changing someones mind/attitude. A lead round nose in 38/three-fifty-etc is more than the candidate IMHO.

Have you ever noticed that in conflict of any kind, the one who intimidates most wins? It's the aggressors overbearing presence that gets them the advantage. Not what a bullet is made of. That is why hijackers were able to fly planes into skyscrapers... because they intimidated and terrified people. The folks who lost and died did not get cut with a box cutter. And I mean that most respectfully.

It's all in the mind. But carry what you feel confident with. There are times that having even a Leatherman have given me the confidence to walk right in to the shadow of the valley.

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Old April 11, 2013, 09:41 PM   #45
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I'm curious where the guy referred to by the OP got the idea that RNL bullets "mushroom reliably". In 40+ years of being a hand gunner I don't think I've ever heard of a RNL bullet "mushrooming" on a flesh and blood target.

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Old April 12, 2013, 05:39 PM   #46
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For SD I either use a LSWCHP 158 +P round such as Remington or Buffalo Bore. A second choice would be Buffalo Bores 150 gr hard cast wadcutters. I like these better than the newer hollow points for a 38 special revolver.
and this also illustrates my comment to newton



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Old April 12, 2013, 06:09 PM   #47
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Shot placement is important but how many of us are real "Deadeyes" under stress and have Charlie Askins' coolness under fire.
Regarding Wild Bill Hickock's feats, I recall a Phil Spangenberger article where he noted that people in general wore more clothes back then, hence penetration was considered more important-and they hadn't heard of the Thompson-Lagarde tests. Cruder medical care, no 911 to call. Also I wonder if we haven't gotten too fixed on the "Struck by Lightning" notion and the Instant Stop Shot. Also how many modern day RNL bullets are pure lead as opposed to an alloy?

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Old April 12, 2013, 10:06 PM   #48
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I carry Buffalo Bore 158gr SWCHP, both +P and non-+P, which are all lead, and Speer Gold Dot 125gr +P JHPs, which are copper jacketed lead, in my 38s.

I would not carry a round-nosed bullet in a revolver, lead or jacketed, unless I had no other option. I have no doubt that they are effective in many cases. But I have other choices that I consider better. I am fervently hoping I never find out whether I made a good choice.
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Old April 13, 2013, 11:11 AM   #49
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...Flat nose, semi-wadcutter or wadcutter lead bullets are far better choices for self-defense than LRN...
How do round nose but with a large flat-nose bullet compare to semi-wadcutters? That is, does the sharp-shoulder of the semi-wadcutter offer any advantage over just a large, flat meplate?
I have noticed that round-nose bullets do not catch on the cylinder, are quicker on the re-load when using speed loaders as do/are semi-wadcutters.
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Old April 13, 2013, 02:41 PM   #50
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I gave up trying to use the WCs out of a speed loader, it's a real fumble fest, SWCs are a little better. I still like RN in my speed loaders, I'm thinking a loaded revolver is better than not.
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