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Old March 16, 2013, 05:34 PM   #26
5Wire
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Where's my Maybach?
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Old March 16, 2013, 05:42 PM   #27
-Xero-
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I have a Kahr MK II, stainless, Elite (extra polish). Standard mag is 6+1, and the full size mag for some other Kahr is 8+1, fits in the MK II and extends beyond the stock grip. That's a nice option, and Kahr isn't alone in this design feature.
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Old March 16, 2013, 07:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Thanks for all the input. It looks like there is no wrong answer.
The only wrong answer is buying a gun that you don't shoot well, or something you will end up leaving in the car or at home because of size or weight, based on what other people tell you to buy. What works best for me may not be to your liking. For example, I am leery of buying Fords because every single one I've ridden in or driven for more than 30 minutes gives me the worst lower back pain. I don't know what it is, something about Ford car seats just don't agree with my lower back.

----

As for costs, yes, there is a difference between a cheap gun (piece of crap) and an inexpensive one (a good deal). I paid $274 for a 4" Ruger Police Service Six a few years ago and it is stone cold reliable. Tough as nails too, and plenty accurate. Makes a fine fighting handgun at a very reasonable price. I carried it for a couple of years, until I started carrying a 4" S&W Model 19. And 4 years ago I bought a Ruger Redhawk in .44 Magnum for $300 (included a carrying case, nylon shoulder holster and 50 rounds of 240 grn .44 Mag JHPs) that I would trust with no qualms.
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Old March 16, 2013, 08:41 PM   #29
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I carry a lcp as a back up to my 44 special or 357 mag 2 1/2 inch snubbies. If 5 shots of whack don't do it that I'm to the little auto.
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Old March 16, 2013, 08:48 PM   #30
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The revolver's main advantage over the flat semi is if you are pocket carrying. The revolver is all rounded, just like the typical human body and it blends into that pocket a lot easier, IMO. I have both the 642 and a Kahr, and the Kahr stands out a lot more being basically a flat square shape
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Old March 16, 2013, 10:39 PM   #31
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I love my SP101, especially in warm weather conditions over the larger auto loaders I have. I am always looking for options though and the KAHR and a few others are on my "too buy list" down the road.
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:34 AM   #32
Glenn E. Meyer
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My PM-9 never ran and I don't like to fool with guns that I can't trust.

My J frames always run.
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Old March 17, 2013, 09:45 PM   #33
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As much as I can proficiently shoot paper with my 9mm, when you are in a real life or death situation with the adrenalin kicked in, and your hands shaking, just like we all want to pretend like we wouldn't do, nothing beats the simplicity of a double action action revolver. You never have to remember if you have a round chambered, if the safety is on, or if the hammer needs to be cocked. You pull it out and shart pulling the trigger. Sure its only 5 shots, but 5 shots from a .38 drastically improves my chances for survival over being unarmed. The chances I will every need to use it is slim. The chances I will need to use and need more than 5 rounds is astonomically slim. As far as energy being less than 9mm...huh? They are nearly identical balistically with a much better selection of bullet types for your .38.
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:40 PM   #34
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5Wire--

Looking at the first two superimposed photos (SW 642 vs. Kahr PM-9 and SW 642 vs. SW BG 38), it looks like the 642 shrunk in height from about 4 and 7/8 inches to 4 and 1/2 inches. Maybe it was left in a pocket and got ran through the washer and shrunk. Seriously, thanks for the graphics.

I've pocket carried a SW Model 38 and felt very comfortable with it. I now mostly carry a Kahr CM-9. After break-in, mine has been reliable. I like it because I can shoot it better than my other small, double action handguns.
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Old March 18, 2013, 10:55 PM   #35
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I like those rules Jim.
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Old March 18, 2013, 11:55 PM   #36
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Why trust your life with a gun that came in with the "low bid"?
Because you don't have to spend a grand on a 100% reliable CCW firearm. I've never had a single malfunction with my LCP firing in excess of 500 rounds. Likewise, my KAHR CM9 has been perfect with nearly as many rounds. To take it farther, I even have a Hi-Point C9 that has also been 100% reliable.
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Old March 19, 2013, 09:58 PM   #37
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I like those rules Jim.
Thanks. They're not original concepts but just what I've picked up.
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Old March 19, 2013, 11:39 PM   #38
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I usually carry some kind of sub compact 9mm with a .38 snub as a back up. Which is kind of funny because my lcr is bigger then a few of my 9mm. I just like having a snub for a bug because if both mags of my 9 run dry or i have some kind of serious malfuction i feel comfortable that i got 5 rounds of .38guaranteed.
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Old March 21, 2013, 05:02 AM   #39
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I owned both a Kahr CM9 and a S&W 642 until I went crazy and sold my S&W 642. Both weapons have different advantages, based largely on my experience with my 2 and my personal opinions.

J-Frame- PRO: no slide to rack, more ergonomic, (almost) never malfunctions, easy to carry IWB/AIWB. CON: Reload time, number of rounds, malfunctions tend to be catastrophic

Micro 9- PRO: Reload time, easy to carry multiple reloads, malfunctions easier to overcome. CON: Ergonomics, harder to grip/draw from holster, slides harder to rack, more limited locations for IWB holster placement.

Again, these are just my 2 cents. I like both, and will probably end up buying another J frame/LCR to add to my CC options.
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Old March 21, 2013, 05:39 AM   #40
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Snubs have their place and it's ideal to have one in your carry line-up. That being said, the slim 9mm and 45acp guns like the Shield (7+1rds 9mm) and XDS (5+1 45acp & 7+1 9mm) are slimmer for IWB carry, faster to reload if necessary and it's very easy to carry a spare mag.

I had a 9mm Shield, but currently use a 45acp XDS for IWB carry. My 642 is best suited for ankle or in a 5.11 holster shirt while bike riding and a speed strip in the other 5.11 shirt pocket. I can IWB my 66-2 no problem, but a slim semi-auto is just much easier and more comfortable all day. Opinions vary, but this is mine.
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Old March 21, 2013, 06:29 PM   #41
Glenn E. Meyer
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Given the current contours of my body (sigh), I've given up on IWBs. As Michael Bane said on the TEEVEE, with the right cover garments you can wear an OWB fairly easily. So I do and cover my Glock 26 and an extra mag. Thus, I get 11 rounds and a reload.

I also found - and this might be because I'm left handed that IWB holsters tend to release the mag on a semi. I notice that the trigger guard cover would flex enough to press it. Happened with Glocks and a 1911.

That being said, the J frame in the pocket works for me. I've found the 26 too large for easy pocket carry but I've done it in cargo pants.

Pocket Js work for moi but an LCP does also but as a BUG.
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Old March 23, 2013, 02:22 PM   #42
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Quote:
.... nothing beats the simplicity of a double action action revolver. You never have to remember if you have a round chambered, if the safety is on, or if the hammer needs to be cocked. You pull it out and shart pulling the trigger.
Won't argue that statement....however....

I have two 5 shot revolvers (S&W and Ruger) and a Kahr PM9 so I've tried both sides. Any firearm I carry has a chambered round. That being said, your comment regarding the properties of a double action revolver exactly fits my PM9. It is always chambered, there is no safety (hence it can not be on), and there is no hammer. You pull it out and start shooting. Maybe that is why I like it so much.
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Old March 25, 2013, 05:28 PM   #43
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Geez, 5Wire, what a great comparison series...really puts it into perspective...I"ve saved your post for posterity...a great way to show new shooters, looking for a carry piece, but wondering about the size differences. Thanks again....Rod
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Old March 25, 2013, 07:00 PM   #44
-Xero-
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I have a 9mm Kahr MK9 and a Smith J-frame, Mod 60 snubby in .357 mag.

The Kahr is 6+1, and I have an extended mag for a larger Kahr which is 8 rd. I think.

Smith is 5 rd. BUT it's .357 mag.

Both about the same size/weight. But the revolver offers a lot more muzzle energy. I've never had a "failure to feed" or "stovepipe" in a revolver, and I can leave it loaded and not worry about compressing mag springs (Although many claim mag spring compression is not an issue.)

I lean toward the Smith, feeling pretty much that one shot from a .357 is a show stopper.
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Old March 25, 2013, 07:34 PM   #45
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Hey Arizona aka Stu...jeepforum pal.
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Old March 25, 2013, 08:23 PM   #46
5Wire
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Thanks, rodfac.

Here's some chrono results that include a 686P 2-1/2" snubbie, 686P 4" Mountain Gun, and an 18-1/2" Marlin 1894C. The Federal 180 grain JHP surprised me.

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Old March 26, 2013, 02:10 PM   #47
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Don't you lose some of that muzzle energy in the short barreled pocket 9s?
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Old March 28, 2013, 10:45 PM   #48
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the only advantage to the little plastic and metal semi autos is that they are somewhat easier to find.

thats it.

the pros and cons of both are increased when size of the actual weapon shrinks. but overall they are still there.

but the thing no one has really touched upon is this, the bullets PROVEN to always expand in the tiny semi autos are the most expensive ones on the market, and are the hardest to find. the older standbys that work fine in a standard barrelled service auto, well become rather insufficient in expansion.

but the idealized loads like a 158 grain lswchp out of your jframe performs almost the same as it does from a 4 inch barrell.
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Old March 28, 2013, 10:57 PM   #49
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The purchase of my Kahr PM9 precipitated the sale of multiple j-frames (as well as my double-stack 9mms). Small, light, easy to shoot well...and:
6+1 > 5
Add a spare 7-round mag for a quick reload and it becomes 14 (fairly quickly) vs. 10 (fairly slowly).
I've shot a few j-frames since (and even recently), and I see the attraction. But I haven't owned one in quite a while, and don't have any plans to.
I may, however, add a Solo or a Rohrbaugh one day.
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Old March 29, 2013, 10:29 AM   #50
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I am a fan of snubs and a fan of small autos. My snubs include a S&W 442, Taurus 85CH, and a Rossi 452. If you count a 3" K-frame as a snub, I also have a S&W 65LS. My small autos include a Taurus PT 140 Millennium Pro (a bit big for pocket carry, but comparable in size and weight to a steel J-frame and nicely concealable), a SIG P290RS, a Kel Tec PF-9, and a Ruger LCP. I'll probably order a .40S&W or .357SIG subcompact caliber X-Change kit for my .45ACP SIG P250 Compact when I finally have it (I've bought it, MD "only" has a 7 day waiting period, but with the run on guns MD State Police have been taking a month or more to do the background checks and they have directed local FFLs not to release any guns until the background check comes back).

I used to carry the 442 or the Taurus 85CH about 80-90% of the time when I was in a state where I can carry. Since I bought the SIG P290 and the Kel Tec PF-9 the SIG gets about 70-80% of the carry time. If I find those numbers don't change once summer gets here (summer is pocket carry weather for me, and the 442 is very well suited to pocket carry) I'll probably sell off the 442 and the Rossi (I'll never sell my 85CH, even if it turns out I rarely use it).

Why have the small autos (especially the SIG P290) beaten out snubs for me? Because they are easier to shoot and practice with (less felt recoil) so I can get more range time in and thus I shoot them better. Because, with less felt recoil, I can get faster follow up shots accurately on target should I need them. Any auto I use for self defense has proven itself quite reliable (my PT140 had one ammo related malfunction in about 2K rounds, my P290, LCP, and S&W 1911SC have had none, my CZ75B which occasionally does HD duties has had over 10K rounds through it and I can the number of malfunctions on one hand, though my PF-9 is still in the testing phase since it had one its first time at the range). IWB they actually conceal better, and while the 442 does better in a pocket than my autos (other than the LCP), the LCP, PF-9 and P290 do conceal well in my pants pockets. While .380 has comparable power numbers v. .38spl in a short barrel (and with the bullet designs available .38 probably does a bit better), 9mm is much more powerful than .38+P. Yes, .357mag out of the Rossi would be more powerful, but it would make the range practice/ability to become more proficient and the follow up shot advantages of the 9mm even more pronounced. Finally, even if power actually was the same, 7+1 rounds in the PF-9 (assuming it proves reliable enough to carry), 6+1 in the P290 (8+1 with the extended mag which works well IWB, though not so well in the pocket), and 10+1 in my PT140 and future .40S&W/.357SIG P250 subcompact (or 12+1 in a 9mm) is much better than 5 rounds out of most snubs (6 in the Rossi).
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