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Old March 26, 2013, 08:21 AM   #1
SgtDog0311
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Your thoughts on Neck Sizing 300 Win Mag

Hi All,

I'm not new to reloading (not an old salt either) and I'm usually on one of the lever gun or cast sites but just acquired a 300 Win Mag and a 25-06 and being the only two bolts I have I’m thinking there is a good possibility I may neck size as opposed to full length sizing. I’ve never used a die specifically for neck sizing but like the idea of keeping head space close (even in a belted cartridge) and not overworking brass.

I read where many bump the shoulder even with a full length sizing die just a smidgen and call that neck sizing. Guess I don't understand how you avoid sizing the body considerably in the process if you take the case far enough in the die to bump the shoulder with a full length sizer???

Anyway, I kind of fastened on Forster but see they have two options:

Forster Bench Rest Neck Sizer
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/235...chester-magnum

And for $40+ more, a Forster Precision Plus Bushing Bump Neck Sizer.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/964...chester-magnum

The latter has three bushings to customize the neck tension but not having neck-sized before I'm not sure what that extra $40 is buying or if it's overkill? Forster says you can bump the shoulder with either. I've read Forster's descriptive sales pitch several times but still don't know if the bushings (in addition to the neck size) add more fine tuning with the shoulder-bump capability than does the bushingless version.

I’m not a bench rest shooter but don't mind the time at the bench pretending like I am.

Would appreciate any input on your experiences, your process or even your prefered dies from anyone, especially concerning the 300WM.
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:35 AM   #2
603Country
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Of the two you mentioned, I'd go with the more expensive shoulder bump neck sizer. That'll let you keep the fireformed cases and allow you to adjust the shoulder for best fit to your chamber, and the bushings will allow you to adjust the sizing of the neck for best neck tension. I believe that you'll need to neck turn to take best advantage of what the bushings can do for you.

Or, you might just try the cheaper alternative, the Lee Collet Neck Sizer and then just FL size when the rounds begin to get tough to chamber. That Lee die does work very well and has made a believer out of me.

Or...you might just use the FL die you have now and Partial Resize. That approach works pretty darn well with some cases - but not that well with the cases with little body taper.
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:42 AM   #3
SgtDog0311
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Thanks for the response 603... appreciate the input!
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Old March 26, 2013, 12:41 PM   #4
ligonierbill
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I have used neck-sizing dies with no problems on 6.5x55 and 7mm Rem Mag. However, I recently got a turret press and set up full length dies on turrets for .300 Savage and .338 Win Mag based on headspace measurements. I bump the shoulder back just a little. No problem chambering in a Savage 99. I have lots of new cases for the .338, so I don't yet know if this approach will extend my case life. I do know that the neck-sized 7mm have never been a problem to chamber, and the only case failures so far have be split necks. I'm using standard RCBS gear.
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Old March 26, 2013, 02:22 PM   #5
F. Guffey
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SgtDog0311, I have competition seating dies, I do not have competition sizer dies, I can not get into the ‘bump the shoulder’ back thing. The 300 Winchester Mag (as we ALLLL know) head spaces on the belt, because I choose to ignore the belt head spacing on the belt I choose to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum back to the face of the bolt because I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel. In the big inning what happened to the case in front of the belt was of little consequence, the purpose of the belt was to hold the case to the rear and the case body in front of the belt was to fill and seal the chamber, not understood by reloaders is the case when filling the chamber did not stretch between the case head and case body, the case expanded out and forward meaning the shoulder of the case did not move forward, with enough room the case shoulder was (partially) erased and became part of the case body and the part of the shoulder became part of the neck. Again, remember the case is pinned to the rear with the belt.

Then came the fascination reloaders have for full length sizing, it is not possible to have both with the belted magnum, the case can not head space on the belt and shoulder at the same time before firing, I choose to head space on the shoulder by avoiding returning the case to minimum length or as they say ‘full length sizing’. And ‘until’ dies are made like inertial pecan crackers I will avoid ‘bumping’, bumping sounds too much like an accident, there is nothing about my die adjustment and sizing that resembles an accident. I determine the length of the chamber first from the shoulder/datum back to the bolt face first. After firing a minimum length case I can measure the length of the fired case from the datum/shoulder to the head of the case to verify the length of the chamber, it goes back to the purpose of the case body ahead of the belt, the case body was designed to fill the chamber, it is assumed the case stretches between the case head and case body, then there is that other part, it is possible for the case body to fill the chamber AND! stretch between the case head and case body.

F. Guffey
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Old March 26, 2013, 02:22 PM   #6
SgtDog0311
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Thanks Ligonier Bill, appreciate the response. I've got a guage to take up north with me but other than my M1A it will be the first time I've used for getting headspace specs. Trying to get everything together I'll need for some time with this new-to-me rifle. Thanks again!
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Old March 26, 2013, 02:36 PM   #7
SgtDog0311
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Thanks Mr Guffy...

I understand "the case is pinned to the rear with the belt" but I guess I thought the fireformed case extracted with the shoulder at the chamber's limit, so the aim would be to set that back as little as possible, (one or two thousands) and that would minimize stretch and help center the cartridge in the chamber?

Maybe I'm not reading you right but it sounds like you are accomplishing both. Seems like measuring to the datum is giving you a spacing whereby the cartridge is spacing on both the belt and the chambers shoulder nearly simultainiously. Sorry to be 'slow on the uptake' if I'm not understanding completely.
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Old March 26, 2013, 02:44 PM   #8
eldermike
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I never touch the shoulder and I use a "neck only" die on 300 win mag. I have loaded the same set of cases many, many times, and the bolt is still an easy close. If I had any trouble closing the bolt I would back off the load. IMHO, trying to move the shoulder is asking for a tight spot in the upper portion of the case body. If I had any idea other than to resize the neck to hold the bullet I would full length resize.
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Old March 26, 2013, 03:05 PM   #9
wncchester
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"I’m thinking there is a good possibility I may neck size as opposed to full length sizing."

I suggest you don't. Neck sizing isn't nearly as helpful for anything as some think. For many factory rifles it does no good at all for accuracy and for some it's not as good as FL sizing, nor is necking any automatic aid for extending case life. Most of the hyped claims you read about neck sizing are people parroting "conventional wisdom" to sound wise but without a real clue of what they're saying.

Both of your new cartridges are bottle neck. Forget the belt and FL size so the shoulder is at the same or slightly less position than the fired location for both, that's all they will need. Your fired cases have already shrunk back a thou or two from max chamber size so any further set-back simply increases the amount of case stretching and does so for no benefit at all.
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Old March 26, 2013, 03:16 PM   #10
F. Guffey
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“I’m not a bench rest shooter but don't mind the time at the bench pretending like I am”

My wife called the range one day, The lady at the range ‘Dottie’ answered the phone, they got into a conversation about bench resters, Dottie ask my wife if I was a bench rester, seems it would help her find me if she had all the information, my wife explained to Dottie the best/fastest way to pick me out of a crowd, after that conversation when other shooters would ask Dottie if I was a bench rester she would inform them of my wife's description, even then they did not know, they only knew how to find me in a crowd.

Then the 25/06, for me it is straight forward, the length of the chamber (head space) is measured from the datum/shoulder of the chamber back to the bolt face. Again, my favorite cases are cases that have been fired in trashy old chamber, that would be chambers that are longer from the shoulder of the chamber back to the bolt face, for me to determine how to adjust my dies I take trashy old cases that are too long to chamber because the case is too long from the shoulder of the case back to the head of the case and start sizing. I start by adjusting the die to the shell holder and then securing the die to the press with the lock ring. If after sizing I find the case will chamber I raise the die above the shell holder and then size another case, I continue the process until the bolt closes with a slight belt resistance to closing.

25/06 and no trashy old fired cases: My 2nd favorite case is the 280 Remington case, the 280 Remington case is longer than the 25/06 case from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case by .051”, the perfect case for deterring the length of a chamber that uses the 30/06 parent chamber dimensions. For the perfect fit all that is required of a reloader is is to understand the correlation between sizing and the gap between the die and shell holder, it takes a trip to the range to fire form, when forming the reloader only needs to understand case forming methods and techniques.

I bundles up a box of cases, dies and lube then went to visit a smith/reloader/shooter, seems he is building bench rester type rifles, he suggested he had a plan but considered my plan could be better, we started using his plan with nothing but failures, it took three different dies including 2 forming dies, we formed 120 cases, we started with 375 H&H, 8mm Remington Magnmum, 300 Weatherby, 300 Winchester magnum cases. Again, he insisted on using Imperial sizing wax, we worked past the case lube difference, he did have some ‘experimental’ type lube, my opinion? We should have had the case lube choice worked out before we started, The Imperial required removal between forming secessions to prevent dents and folds. The first forming operation required the die be adjusted off the shell holder .340”, I choose .350” for final sizing because the rifles have not been chambered yes, for the rifles that have been chambered it will be a matter of determining the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face, again, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

No, it is not necessary to invest in forming dies, the first forming die from MidwayUSA cost $157.00 and must be ordered special, my 2nd most favorite (magnum) forming die, it is short, short means the case former has to be able to make adjustment ‘off the shell holder’. The 1st most favorite forming die is the 308 Winchester forming die, the 3rd is the 243 Winchester forming die, because they are short.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; March 26, 2013 at 03:40 PM. Reason: change range to phone
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Old March 26, 2013, 04:06 PM   #11
603Country
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It's hard to argue with the benefits of FL sizing, but there are issues with that in some cases. In 35 or so years of reloading, I never had a case head separation. Not one time. The sizing from most of those years was partial resizing and then neck sizing. Then I heard that FL sizing was better for accuracy, so I moved to that in my 223 accuracy testing. I then had plenty of case head separations, so I was shortening the case too much. Based on what I know (and what I think I know ) I now believe that using a die that will bump the shoulder back very slightly to the same position each time and on each case and will allow necks to be sized with a bushing to your desired tension is the way to go.

You can do this by use of a Lee Collet Die for the neck and then any good die that will bump the shoulder back by the desired amount. You might just try the Lee Collet Die first before you start spending money wildly. You can't bump the shoulder with it, but unless you shoot hot loads, maybe you don't need any bumping. I was a tough sell on that Lee die until I bought one and used it. Geez...there was a definite improvement in accuracy with my 223. No doubt about it. Next Lee Collet Die will be for the 260 that I have and that I think will shoot better than it does now.
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Old March 26, 2013, 05:59 PM   #12
SgtDog0311
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Thanks gentlemen... really appreciate your taking the time to provide the input. Think I'll start out with my standard RCBS set and work up the cheapest route (Lee) - if I don't like the results then I can move up the $$ chain. Won't get to it till summer when I head north. Nice thing there is I have a short range off the porch so I can start out with full length resize, obtain some fireformed brass from that, then test both without trips to the range by walking inside to the bench and using the info you've provided as I go. Got plenty to learn and plenty to keep me busy before the fall hunting season.
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Old March 27, 2013, 10:52 AM   #13
F. Guffey
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Yesterday, 02:36 PM #7
SgtDog0311
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Posts: 7 Thanks Mr Guffy...

I understand "the case is pinned to the rear with the belt" but I guess I thought the fire formed case extracted with the shoulder at the chamber's limit, so the aim would be to set that back as little as possible, (one or two thousands) and that would minimize stretch and help center the cartridge in the chamber?

Maybe I'm not reading you right but it sounds like you are accomplishing both. Seems like measuring to the datum is giving you a spacing whereby the cartridge is spacing on both the belt and the chambers shoulder nearly simultaneously. Sorry to be 'slow on the uptake' if I'm not understanding completely.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This topic came up before, I was informed by the brain trust (Oh’ Brother, where art though) it was not possible to ‘do both’, I was not ask “HOW?” Nor was I asked “CAN IT BE DONE?” I disregard the belt, when firing new minimum length/full length sized cases the shooter has no control, it is the belt or nothing, it helps if the reloader/shooter can determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum of the chamber back to the bolt face, it helps if the reloader/shooter can determine the distance from the shoulder of the belt seating surface back to the bolt face. again, the case body fills the chamber, and again, the shoulder does not move forward to accommodate stretch, the shoulder forms to the chamber, part if the shoulder becomes part of the case body and part of the neck becomes part of the should, and? if that is not enough to keep up with case stretch depends on the distance the belt of the case is allowed to move forward (and we all know if the belt of the case moves forward when driven forward it is sure to move back with all the pressure created when fired), moving forward creates the problem, the case forms to the chamber and locks onto the chamber, when the case locks onto the chamber the case head is not supported by the bolt face, back to the part we all know about what happens next, the case head moves back against the bolt face, again, without the case body. As a results the case stretches between the case head and case body, back before the Internet it was suggested 4 to 5 firings was a good life span for a belted magnum.

In the big inning I had a non Weatherby chamber to a non Weatherby chamber. It shot one hole groups, with a minimum of work. At the same time I had a Winchester Model 70 chambered to 300 Win Mag, same ammo for both rifles, the Winchester shot patterns, “liken” to a shotgun. Cases fired in the non-Weatherby chambered in the Winchester Model 70 after firing, sizing cases fired in the non-Weatherby was effortless, Cases fired in the Model 70 Winchester was a work out, dies? again, I have dies, I have small base dies for the 300 Win mag, I have case forming dies for the 300 Win Mag, I have 2 sets of Winchester 300 Win Mag BAR dies, again, sizing the cases fired in the Winchester Model 70 was a work out. As expected Winchester and I had words, they thought I was difficult in the beginning, before we were finished they thought I was impossible, all I wanted was a chamber that fit my dies or Winchester dies that fit their chamber. The made arrangements for me to take it to their warranty work smith, he did not hear a word I said but did list a plan for corrections, hone, polish, ream etc., and I asked “How is honing, polishing and or reaming going to ‘reduce the diameter and length of the chamber? I returned to to pick-up the rifle, it was not there, and I ask “WHY?” He responded with “After polishing, honing and or reaming the chamber it was too large in diameter and too long so we went it back to Winchester”, and, I ask, “When did the chamber get too long and too large in diameter?”

Point? The chambers were different, accuracy was different, back to the brain trust, a lot if gigs of space has been used up proclaiming the merits of factory minimum length/full length sized ammo and accuracy, sounds something like “The (new) World record has been set by a shooter in Pennsylvania with a rifle chambered to 300 Win Mag using factory Federal ammo” then the deductions (or therefore All that is necessary for accuracy is use Federal factory ammo. ??? The rifle used by the world record setter was not like my Model 70 Winchester 300 Win Mag, the rifle used cost thousands more than my non-Weatherby. Friends thought I was lucky, as in Weatherby rifles are not that accurate, even after I explained to them the rifle was a non-Weatherby rifle.

Case forming, I went to help a friend form cases for bench rest type rifles that have not been chambered yet. he asked me if I had the ‘OTHER MAGNUM’ shell holder, I explained there was no shortage of #4 shell holders, some better than others for a different reason, he siad he had cases that would not fit his #4 shell holder, I added, for all other cases that will not fit the #4shell holder there is the gun/case friendly ball peen hammer (a smaller version of the big one). He had 15 Browning 300 Win mag cases that would not fit the shell holder, he also had Weatherby 300 Weatherby cases that would not fit the #4 Shell holder, once he understood someone fired the cases with that exceeded the daily recommended dosage of powder he used the gun/case friendly hammer to seat the cases in the shell holder (against my recommendation).

The case heads were hammered, the case heads increased in diameter, when that happens the case between the case head and case body stretched. I offered to measure the diameter of the flash hole, problem, if the diameter of the flash hole was unknown before firing, nothing in the forum of information could be gained by measuring after firing.

All I needed to know was ‘The cases did not fit the #4 shell holder’, I have (old) shell holders that have less tolerance for fit than the RCBS shell holder.

Then there is the other unknow, did the case fit the sehll holder before firing. All the cases that did not fit the shell holder had been reloaded once.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; March 27, 2013 at 10:54 AM. Reason: add the dotted line
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Old March 27, 2013, 10:11 PM   #14
GeauxTide
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Magnums headspace on the belt. Working the shoulder only hastens case fatigue and failure. Bottlenecks don't need shoulder movement after the first firing, either. If new brass, only size to fit the chamber. Then, put a nickel between the die and shell holder. The only thing you have to worry about then is primer pockets loosening up after about 7 full loads. Has worked for me the past 40 odd years in nine different rifle calibers.
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Old March 28, 2013, 08:33 AM   #15
SgtDog0311
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Geauxtide, Got the nickle!

Didn't say it here before but both these rifles came by way of my best friend, who recently died from ALS. I purchased both, along with much of his reloading setup from his widow.

Among his equipment I found the nickle tucked in with a die; he obviously prescribed to your technique.
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Old March 28, 2013, 12:27 PM   #16
F. Guffey
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“But you do not have to call me Raymond. J. Johnson” You could use a 1 cent piece, you could use a nickel, you could use a dime, you could use a quarter, you could use a half dollar piece, you could use a silver dollar piece, or you could determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face, THEN!! use a feeler gage with leafs that start with a thickness of .001” thickness, while TRYING to remember the the minimum/max between minimum and maximum length is .010.

Using a nickel? I will take a wild guestimate at the thickness of a quarter, .078”, meaning it would take about 12 + quarters stacked one on top of another to total a height of 1 inch. A gap of .078” between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder is token sizing as in just going through the motions as in ‘just neck sizing’.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...r%20Magnum.pdf

Again: No mention of head space applied to the case, only the chamber.

When the quarter method of measurement is applied to SAAMI they are not related as in someone trying to us the wrong standard , something like using a yard stick to measure color.

There is .007” between minimum and max between the distance from the bolt face to the belt seating surface. There is .010” difference between minimum and maximum from the shoulder (datum of .420”) back to the bolt face.

Moving to the case, with no mention of HEAD SPACE: From the head of the case forward to the front of the belt is .220 with the –.007” as in between . .213” to .220”, then the length of the case from the shoulder (datum) back to the head of the case, from the datum of .420” (shoulder), the measurement is 2.270” maximum with a – of .007”, that is a minimum of 2.263” to a maximum of 2.270”,

Error, when using a quarter when applying SAAMI standards there is an absolute error of from X11 maximum to a minimum of X10.

F. Guffey
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Old March 28, 2013, 12:46 PM   #17
603Country
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Keep in mind that belted magnum cases are not a subject that I have loads of experience with, since I don't care for belted mag rounds. That said, use of the nickel for spacing between the bottom of the die and the shellholder is just taking you to Partial Resizing. Nothing wrong with that. And once you are partial resizing, the case is probably headspacing on the shoulder and not the belt, and that is a good thing for case life. What F Guffy seems to be upset about is that you are using a nickel for spacing, when he much prefers use of feeler gauges to set the shoulder exactly where it should be, rather than approximately where it should be. If I'm understanding him correctly, he's right, though you could just start with the nickel spacing and then close the gap till you feel shoulder resistance when you chamber the resized case, and then back off a small amount. It appears that Mr Guffey deals in precise measurement, whereas most of the rest of us are a bit less precise. Nothing wrong with that, and I strongly suspect that his ammo is better than mine.
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Old March 28, 2013, 04:27 PM   #18
F. Guffey
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http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint...specifications

1.75 millimeters = 0.0688976378 inches Quarter conversion

1.95 millimeters = 0.0767716535 inches Nickel conversion

and a wild guestimate of a full turn of the die is .071429”

Not long after raising the die off the shell holder 1 turn of the die to .071429” the reloader will start having problems closing the bolt.

Upset? There is nothing between full length sizing and .0767” off the shell holder? I have 76 choices. Again, I have a M1917 Eddystone, I adjust the die off the shell holder .014” because it has a Elmer Keith chamber. The chamber in my M1917 has an additional .016” added to the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. By increasing the length of the case by .014” I have cut-down (reduced case travel), I am the fan of cutting down on case travel, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; March 28, 2013 at 04:28 PM. Reason: move b and y closer together
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