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Old March 15, 2013, 02:27 PM   #26
44 AMP
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I'm afraid all my manuals are older ones, some too old to list the .45 Win Mag, and others sometimes only listing it in the T/C Contender section. (have a 14" barrel for the .45WM...anybody want to trade a 10" for it?)

The single action way to go for a .45 WM is to get a Ruger Blackhawk or Vaquero (NOT "new Vaquero") and have the .45ACP cylinder reamed to headspace the .45WM. Not the .45 Colt cylinder, as the .45 Colt is .480" at the case mouth, while both the .45acp and the .45WM are .473" at the case mouth.

The Ruger New Vaquero, has a smaller frame size than the Blackhawk or Vaquero, and is not suitable for loads in the .44mag/45Win mag class. The "Ruger only" loads in .45 Colt are only meant for the Blackhawk/Vaquero frame size guns, and were developed well before Ruger brought out the New Vaquero model.

Ruger names are very confusing, especialy since, with the Blackhawk/new Blackhawk there are guns in both the .44mag size and the smaller size frames & cylinders. My rule of thumb is, that if Ruger chambers the gun in .44mag, then the .45 cal version would be convertable to .45WM. A different model, even with the same or very similar name, not chambered in .44mag would NOT be suitable for .45acp to .45Win Mag conversion.

The .45WinMag is essentially a stretched .45ACP, with a case length of 1.198 vs .898" for the ACP. The .45 Colt (Long Colt) has a slightly larger body diameter (approx .007") and so is not able to be converted to the .45WM chambering, its already too large in diameter. Converting the .45acp cylinder is a fairly simple matter of reaming out the chambers to headspace the longer WM round. However, doing that will mean you cannot use .45acp in that cylinder any more.

If you wanted a revolver able to shoot all three rounds, .45 Colt, .45 ACP, and .45 Win Mag, you would need 3 cylinders.

You can actually shoot .45acp out of a .45WM Contender barrel, the extractor will hold the shorter ACP rounds in place. But, I don't care to do that, as the longish bullet jump would argue against max accuracy, and extensive firing of the shorter case round could lead to a "ringed" chamber over time (ok, it will take a lot of time-rounds fired, but why risk it?). And then there is the usual crud build up at the mouth of the short case, which can interfere with chambering the longer case, if not kept clean. Much like .22 shorts in .22 Long Rifle chamber, just not as likely to give issues as soon as .45auto ammo is "cleaner" than .22RF.


Quote:
""like a "motorcycle that will do 180mph, but won't do less than 70..." not a big market for something like that.""

Well the Wildey (my favorite in your collection) is certainly an eclectic creation and belongs in that special class of handgun...
Actually just the opposite, The Wildey is the only one that doesn't fit in that class. With its adjusable gas system, the Wildey can go from 0 to 180, at your choice. All the others must have a minimum load level to function. To keep with the analogy, they can all do 0mph (manual cycling of the action to reload), or go from 70 to 180mph, but won't run less than 70,other than 0.
The Wildey can be adjusted to shoot loads (and function automatically) with loads less than "70mph".

As to speedloader issues, the problem is one of tolerances (dimensions). Most of our modern revlovers have frames designed before oversize grips became common, or the virtual standard they are today. Also before circular speedloaders.

Most of the larger grips have a "cut out" to allow for clearance of speedloaders. And in my experience, they do allow clearance. Just barely. More room with some brands/styles than with others. Yes, some of them are so "tight" you can jam up the speedloader, which kind of negates the advantage of a speedloader...

I use the HKS models (ball detent twist knob) and have not had any issues with them coming loose dropping rnds, etc. Have a couple of push type/automatic release, ones and they are much more troublesome.

Agreed moon, or half moon clips are the least troublsome system of rapid revolver reload, BUT, they are not well adapable to all gun designs and calibers without a lot of expert machining, and sometimes, not even then, epdpending on the specifc gun being considered for conversion.

you can get speedloaders for lots and lots of revolvers, including many no longer in production. Ex: would you have a Colt Python cut for moon clips? (ok, your gun, your money, your choice, but I don't know anybody in their right mind who would have it done). No, you wouldn't (would you?), you'd just get and use speedloaders. Or at least, I would.

And aside from the moon clip issue, can't put the .45Win Mag ina .460S&W, because the S&W chamber is already (.45 Colt dia) cut too large for the Win Mag case.

next question(s)?
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Old March 15, 2013, 08:05 PM   #27
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"next question(s)?"

Ahoy 44 AMP,

"The single action way to go for a .45 WM is to get a Ruger Blackhawk or Vaquero (NOT "new Vaquero") and have the .45ACP cylinder reamed to headspace the .45WM."

Searched the web, boy Ruger sure like to put a lot of writing on their revolvers, ( goal must be to do away with the paper manual and transfer it onto revolver surfaces ).

Guess Ruger has stopped building the 'old' Vaqueros. Pity.

Another path, take a 45 ACP S&W N-frame M22-4 and ream it out for 45WM? Might need a new (perhaps longer?) heavy duty non-fluted cylinder cut/drilled/reamed to spec. Kinda surprises me that this cartridge has been around for so long and S&W haven't taken advantage of it, likely waiting for Taurus to build one first and then follow suit.

RE: Wildey pistol. "Actually just the opposite..."

Hmmm. A profound metaphysical question. Upon further analysis I believe you are right. Beam me up Scotty.

RE: Speedloaders... am using HKS speedloaders on all my non-moon-clip ready revolvers. Some of the grips are large, Pachmayr compacs. Just if I need to reload in an emergency, sure don't want to fumble about with a speedloader malfunction, have 'shaved' one grip down, on the 44 Mag. On close inspection looks lousy but works. The ones on the 44 spl have nice S&W logos, don't want to mess them up, will have to order smaller ones.

An old time cop said loose cartridges were best, "if you drop a speedloader you are in trouble, drop a cartridge you still have 5 in your hand.

RE: Colt Python: "would you have a Colt Python cut for moon clips?"

If it was a carry gun AND if I could get the factory custom shop to do a guaranteed job, yes. Would not take a chance on a gunsmith ruining it. The knowledge base for Colt revolvers is shrinking.

Maybe someone can convince Clint Eastwood to do another movie with a custom shop S&W in 45WM, which would create enough market demand.

Thank you for your comments, gotta go, must take this call from Hollywood ...
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Old March 15, 2013, 08:23 PM   #28
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44AMP: From reading your treatise above I get the impression you believe the new Flat Top Blackhawk .44 Magnum is based on the smaller frame. All Flat Top .44 Magnum Blackhawks, Three-Screw and New Model, are built on the .44 Magnum frame.

The new Model Flat Top Blackhawks in .357 Magnum, .44 Special, and .45 Colt are on the medium frame.

Just wanting to be sure.

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Old March 16, 2013, 10:43 PM   #29
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Bob, I tried to avoid the confusion, by saying what I did, if it's available in .44mag, then the .45 version ought to be able to handle the .45 Win mag. Ruger names are a pain in the butt trying to keep straight in conversation.

I have "new model" (post 73) Blackhawks, & SuperBlackhawk. I have a few Vaqueros (now no longer made), and a "New Vaquero" (still in production).

I don't have personal experience with the flat tops, or anniversary models, know only that they do exist in two different frame sizes.

As I see it, the large frame guns could be converted to .45 Win mag. The medium frame guns should not be.

Seaman,
Quote:
Another path, take a 45 ACP S&W N-frame M22-4 and ream it out for 45WM?
I don't personally know that model. Several of the S&W .45acp guns have cylinders made for the short round, and the barrels protrude deeply into the frams because of it. If that is the case with the model you mention, it would take more work than just the cylinder. A lot more.

The .45 Win Mag was originally intended for the Wildey, but it showed up on the market well before the Widleys were ready. T/C chambered barrels, and eventually some other guns were made for the .45WM, the AutoMag IV, LAR Grizzly being the two I know of, besides the Wildey and T/C.

I do know some people did have the .45ACP cylinders of convertable Blackhawks cut for the WinMAg, and have been considering having that done to one of mine as well, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

The .45 WinMag is still "in production" by Winchester, but its "seasonal", meaning they only do a production run of ammo every few years. With the current demand for the common calibers, I wouldn't expect to see any new factory ammo any time soon.

Starline does produce brass, again, in limited lots, from time to time.

I've been "collecting" it for a while, and have enough to feed my stable, if I ever get around to loading it up.
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Old March 17, 2013, 12:09 PM   #30
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"I don't personally know that model."

On the barrel of the S&W M22-4 it is identified as " 45 CAL. MODEL 1950" Recently produced by S&W as part of their historic series.

Think there have been a number of variants since WW1. Similar to the Indiana Jones custom S&W M1917 with (cut back) 4" barrel.

This most recent version of the venerable classic has an ejector rod shroud underlug, and a very wide half-moon front sight.

Might be able to make 45WM out of a cut down .308 casing?

Thank you for introducing me to a fascinating new handgun cartridge. I'm guessing the Wildey makes for a fine Alaska gun, that is assuming they are reliable. (bears don't wait on folks clearing a jammed auto-loader) I note there are more than a few up for sale, are they still manufactured?

All the best.
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File Type: jpg S&W M 1950.JPG (97.6 KB, 20 views)
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Old March 18, 2013, 03:44 PM   #31
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I have made .44AMP cases (.44 Auto Mag Pistol) out of .308 brass, and there is a fair amount of reaming needed to thin the mouth of the case to take the .429" bullet.

.44AMP cases are .459" at the mouth, while .45 Win Mag are .473". So, the .308 case body has more taper than the .45Win Mag, and making brass from .308 cases would also require careful fire forming, adding additional steps.

An N frame S&W has the size (frame window) and strength to be made in .45Win Mag. Converting a current model can be done, the amount of work needed would depend on the specific model. It might just be cylinder work, or it might be barrel and cylinder work, depending on the model to be converted.

And, in the end, what you will have is something that matches the .44 Magnum. And needs moon cliips. You save a lot of time, money, and effort just going with the .44 Mag,which if you really want to, can be converted to take the moon clips, although I just use regular speedloaders.

As a technical exercise, something neat to play with and explore the possibilities, something no one else has, go for it! But as a practical replacement for a .44Mag? You'll spend a lot for very little gain, if any.

I do not know if Wildy is still in production, or not. Last time I looked, they haven't updated their web site in years....
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Old March 18, 2013, 03:58 PM   #32
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I have a box of 44 Auto mag cases formed from military cases ( I thought 223 ) but concede 44 knows more than I on the subject, so I'd guess they are infact .308... along with my formed cases, I got an original 44 AMP cartridge box... don't know anyone interested do you ???
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Old March 19, 2013, 09:35 AM   #33
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I personally don't think the .45WinMag is a good idea even in a large frame Ruger. The accepted safe maximum for large frame Ruger .45's is 32,000CUP and the .45WinMag has a maximum operating pressure of 40,000CUP. Equal to the .44Mag. It would make no sense anyway as you can get better performance out of the .45Colt at less pressure, due to its greater powder capacity. It would be a novelty at best with no practical advantage over more practical cartridges.

Definitely not a good idea for an N-frame.
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Old March 20, 2013, 11:42 PM   #34
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NewFrontier has a point. Since the frame of the new Model Blackhawk, Vaquero & Super Blackhawk are essentially the same, I think the frame will handle the 40K pressure. Can't say with certainty about the .45 caliber cylinder going from 32k (which we know they will handle) to 40k, but I have not heard of those that have done it having catastrophic failures.

That doesn't mean its a good idea, just that news of someone blowing up a converted .45acp Blackhawk cylinder hasn't made the rounds. Personally, I think it would handle it, and since there is a real high probability that anyone getting the conversion done will be handloading for the gun, if trouble starts showing up at top end pressures, just back off a bit.

Magnum, is that .44AMP box you have one of the red cardboard CDM boxes? IF so, it might be worth a few pennies to the right person.

According to my sources, 1,000,000 rounds of ammo and 600,000 empty brass were produces by CDM of Mexico (owned at the time 49% by Remington) as the inital ammo supply for the Auto Mag pistols.

I got between 7-800 rnds of that stuff when I got my first Auto Mag, so I have a few of those boxes myself. And 11 of them are still full...
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Old March 21, 2013, 01:08 AM   #35
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The frame can definitely handle it. Custom five-shot guns are built in .45Colt and .475Linebaugh and those are routinely run to 50-55,000psi. The issue is the cylinder. No, it won't lead to a catastrophic failure but you're seriously cutting into your safety margin and there's no good reason to. You just paid $150-$200 (if you can find a `smith that already has a reamer) for less performance out of a relatively obscure cartridge (expensive, hard to find brass) that runs at dangerously higher pressures when you already have a chambering that will do everything better. You can't run as heavy a load because you're limited by taper crimping your ammo. Not to mention that there is probably no loading data available that does not use ACP bullets. I'll be the last one to talk somebody out of custom work but I really don't see a good reason for this.

Now, going to the effort to feed your Wildey or LAR Grizzly, that's a different story.
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Old March 21, 2013, 05:42 AM   #36
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I have big hands and can easily grip a Desert Eagle in any caliber, but most would have a hard time. Heck, many have a hard time with some double stack 9mm handguns so I think the size of the gun is why you don't see many made in such calibers.
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Old March 21, 2013, 05:49 AM   #37
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44... I'll pull it out & look at it ( been a while ) maybe take a pic...
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Old March 21, 2013, 11:18 AM   #38
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I don't see why a gun with mag well forward of trigger is such a turn off. Wont be a CCW piece, but there are many variations that seem to do well and that would alleviate almost all the technical problems mentioned above.
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Old March 21, 2013, 11:20 AM   #39
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Not to mention that there is probably no loading data available that does not use ACP bullets.
There is load data available, for the 250-260gr jacketed bullets,as well as the lighter bullets intended for the .45acp. Most of it was developed in Contenders, but it works well enough in the autos.

.45acp bullets intended to expand at .45acp velocities do real impressive things when driven in the 1500fps range. Penetration suffers some, and I wouldn't choose a 200gr JHP intended for the .45acp as a deer bullet at 1500fps for a shoulder shot, but with careful placement will do the job.

Like the .357Mag 125gr bullet fired from a carbine, when a bullet is optimized for a certain velocity range, pushing it half again faster (or more) changes the performance radically. Another couple of examples are shooting the 150gr .30-30 bullet out of a .300 magnum, or the Speer 400gr SP (intended for the .45-70) from a .458 magnum. There's no free lunch.

So, to get the best performance from the .45 Win Mag, you have to use the right bullets. ACP bullets are fine for plinking and practice, and I would expect them to serve tolerable well in a defensive situation (OMG!), if you are going for game, choosing the right bullet for the velocities you are geting is crucial.

Quote:
You can't run as heavy a load because you're limited by taper crimping your ammo.
Another point I hadn't considered. I don't think taper crimping limits the load you can use in the cartridge, but I can see where it might make a difference in the load you can use in a revolver.

I'venevder run into a situation where a taper crimp was any less "gripping" of the bullet than a roll crimp (assuming correctly done), but I have never worked with tapercrimped heavy loads in a revolver. Certainly its quite possible that too light a taper crimp would allow bullet jump, and taper crimping doesn't look like it offers the grip of a good hard roll crimp. But is it actually gvoing to be an issue? That is something I think needs some study, someone who has a converted revolver, could provide their experiences, but they are rather rare. I'd say if factory rounds don't jump crimp, then taper crimp, at those load levels is adequate. Beyond that? Trial and error....

I agree, even if the stars line up and the entrails are all favorable, converting a Ruger to .45 Win mag is not a good cost/benefit deal. However, if your desire is to give your revolver another round to shoot, and you are ok with the potential drawbacks (like maybe not being able to load the round to it max potential in a revolver?) then its do able, I think.

One thing I've learned over the years, a gun/cartridge/load combination doesn't have to be max efficient, or even practical, to be fun, or useful sometimes. And that is enough for some of us to have them.
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Old March 21, 2013, 12:07 PM   #40
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Quote:
I don't see why a gun with mag well forward of trigger is such a turn off.
The balance would be horrendous. Because not only would the magazine and its heavy cartridges be forward of your grip, so would most of the action.


Quote:
I've never run into a situation where a taper crimp was any less "gripping" of the bullet than a roll crimp (assuming correctly done), but I have never worked with taper crimped heavy loads in a revolver.
I was thinking loads in the 300-360gr range where a firm roll crimp is critical to prevent the bullets from jumping crimp.
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Old March 22, 2013, 07:50 PM   #41
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The balance would be horrendous. Because not only would the magazine and its heavy cartridges be forward of your grip, so would most of the action.
True, but have you handled 8"+ magnum revolver? The balance is pretty bad anyways. Lots of Encore pistol set ups are not balanced well. It wouldn't be good for many competition or defensive purposes, but I doubt many people would buy it for those reasons anyways. Hunting or plinking at the range and drawing all the attention would be just as successful. I mean, come on, your telling me if BFR came out with some insane 460/500 SW guns you don't think people would buy them just to say they had them? We live in a competitive materialistic society my friend.
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Old March 22, 2013, 08:14 PM   #42
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True, but have you handled 8"+ magnum revolver? The balance is pretty bad anyways.
Don't confuse weight with balance. A sixgun can be five pounds and still be well balanced. I've been toting a 3rd Model Dragoon all season and while it is very heavy at 4.25lbs, it is still very well balanced. While no large frame big bore will handle like a 4¾" Colt SAA or 1851 Navy, most are fairly well balanced. Which means that weight distribution is nearly even, slightly towards the muzzle. The long cylinder guns like the stretch frame BFR's and S&W X-frames balance further forward because all the added weight is forward of the grip. A massive semi-auto with its magazine forward of the trigger would not only be very heavy but the balance would be like a .460S&W with a brick taped to the barrel. In a word, horrendous to the point of uselessness. Which kinda negates the purpose of a handgun, particularly a semi-auto.
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Old March 24, 2013, 11:07 AM   #43
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I don't see why a gun with mag well forward of trigger is such a turn off.
While it may not be a turn off to you or me, lots of people wouldn't care for it, not only because of the balance, but because it does go a long way to removing the gun from the "duty piece" category. The market will be tiny. And, by the time you get something like the Mauser Broomhandle sized to take a magnum power round, you might as well just extend the barrel and add a stock, making it a carbine, which might actually be more useful.

Also, if the mag is detatchable, and somewhere other than in the grip, that makes the pistol an "assault weapon" under the original 94 law (now expired) and under those state laws that copied it (still in force). SO, you wouldn't be able to market, sell, or perhaps even bring such a gun into those states, decreasing an already small niche market.

Would be tough to get investors to sign on to something like that, especially in today's climate.
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Old March 24, 2013, 11:20 AM   #44
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I have only seen a couple of Desert Eagles and they were massive. They sure looked impressive, but were to large for me.
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Old March 24, 2013, 01:38 PM   #45
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The recoil of the things means that having a repeater is of no advantage in hunting, and it's a huge handicap for fighting. Also, of course, the bulk and weight of the things mean that they are most unlikely to be there when you need a gun. Guess it's the "look what I got" syndrome.
Not if you are proficient in their use.
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Old March 24, 2013, 02:01 PM   #46
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I don't see why the Contender hasn't wiped out both the big gas op autos and big bore magnum revolvers. The recoil of the things means that having a repeater is of no advantage in hunting, and it's a huge handicap for fighting. Also, of course, the bulk and weight of the things mean that they are most unlikely to be there when you need a gun. Guess it's the "look what I got" syndrome.
Most revolver shooters would probably strongly disagree, I certainly do. I've been in plenty of situations where five or six shots was a definite advantage and Contenders aren't exactly holster friendly. I don't know what you're talking about but magnum revolvers carry just fine on my hip. I also don't find Contenders to be particularly comfortable to shoot and thus, have three dozen revolvers but no single shots.
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Old March 24, 2013, 02:03 PM   #47
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the big gas op autos and big bore magnum revolvers. The recoil of the things means that having a repeater is of no advantage in hunting, and it's a huge handicap for fighting. Also, of course, the bulk and weight of the things mean that they are most unlikely to be there when you need a gun. Guess it's the "look what I got" syndrome.
your lack of knowledge on is topic is apparent.
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Old March 24, 2013, 10:22 PM   #48
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The recoil of the things means that having a repeater is of no advantage in hunting, and it's a huge handicap for fighting. Also, of course, the bulk and weight of the things mean that they are most unlikely to be there when you need a gun. Guess it's the "look what I got" syndrome.
First off, recoil of a Contender is much WORSE than the recoil of a repeater in the same caliber.

Second, even with considerable recoil (and the big autos have LESS recoil than the revolvers), it is still a LOT faster getting off a second, or third aimed shot than emptying and reloading a single shot.

And third, while I am by no means an expert pistolero, with my "look what I got" .44 Auto Mag, I have cleared 5 bowling pins off the table (with considerable authority) in 5.36 seconds. Also did it in 4.37seconds with a .357Mag Desert Eagle.

Just because you can't use it to full advantage doesn't mean no one can.

I have a couple of Contenders, .44 Mag S&W and Ruger revolvers, as well as my magnum autoloaders. The autos are the most pleasant to shoot.

Nobody ouside of Hollywood and video gamers seriously thinks of magnum autos as combat weapons (although the Coonan should have serious consideration), they aren't built with that in mind. There's no rule that says every pistol has to be a combat/defensive pistol.

If you don't have a use for them, fine. But don't tell me they are useless, I know better!
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Old March 25, 2013, 08:40 PM   #49
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First off, recoil of a Contender is much WORSE than the recoil of a repeater in the same caliber.
Factory, yes. There are some heavy grips with a lot of cushion and it isn't hard at all to ad weight to a contender. Reducing felt recoil and adjusting balance to personal taste.

I agree not many will actually keep them close and that as efficient as one might be with a 44 mag and follow ups, there are cartridges that will do a number on an unarmored target and will allow a shooter with equal skills a much faster follow-up. 44 AMP says he shaved a second, almost 20%, dropping down to 357 mag.

I've decided I receive no advantage in hunting with a repeater. I don't hunt prairie dogs and I can see how if properly set-up a repeater might be good for coyotes if you really just wanted to lay them out and weren't worried about pelts.

I've not bought a repeater for hunting in several years and my last caliber purchase was a 460 Encore barrel chosen over a Ruger revolver.

Being in a "free state," I hadn't consider the banned in some states aspect. I had been considering that without a cylinder gap supporting with your off hand would be possible, although that also heads down a problematic legal path.

Titanium slide, steel barrel in a titanium sleeve? Iwas thinking the designs natural flow to a carbine was a plus, especially since ATFE has issued the 'pistol to rifle and back is ok' decision.

BTW, I was told the Israelis designed the Desert Eagle as an anti-tank gun in 1990 a few days ago. I tried to explain 50 AE v. 50 BMG and clear up the details, but abandoned the endeavor after the second unsuccessful attempt.
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Last edited by johnwilliamson062; March 25, 2013 at 08:45 PM.
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Old March 26, 2013, 09:54 AM   #50
newfrontier45
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Join Date: February 23, 2012
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Quote:
I've decided I receive no advantage in hunting with a repeater.
No, there IS a distinct advantage. You've simply decided to forgo it. Just like I do when I hunt with a muzzleloader.

Coyotes and prairie dogs are not the only game where repeat shots may be needed or desired.
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