The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 19, 2013, 02:36 PM   #1
Bosshoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2004
Posts: 172
Private sale out of state?

Is it legal to purchase a firearm from a private party, when you are in a state other than your own? Example: If I am from Illinois, can I purchase a firearm from a private party in Iowa? I don't think I would have to have something shipped to an IL. FFL in this case. Am I incorrect?
__________________
Chop Chop!
Bosshoff is offline  
Old March 19, 2013, 02:38 PM   #2
aarmel732
Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 67
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.
aarmel732 is offline  
Old March 19, 2013, 02:38 PM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosshoff
Am I incorrect?
Short answer:

Yes.

Long answer:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 19, 2013, 02:49 PM   #4
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,126
Just to recap:
  1. Every firearm purchase by a non-FFL that crosses state lines has to go through an FFL.
  2. Handgun purchases by a non-FFL must go through an FFL in the purchaser's state of residence.
  3. Long gun purchases by a non-FFL may go through an FFL in any state, but still must go through an FFL.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old March 20, 2013, 11:16 AM   #5
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,773
Just to be sure because this is important, often misunderstood and comes up often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosshoff
...If I am from Illinois, can I purchase a firearm from a private party in Iowa? I don't think I would have to have something shipped to an IL. FFL in this case. Am I incorrect?
You are incorrect.

Here is the long version, with details, of what Brian and Spats McGee wrote -- the whole federal law story on interstate transfers of firearms (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):

[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Here's what the statutes say:
Quote:
18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
...
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old March 20, 2013, 04:07 PM   #6
Bosshoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2004
Posts: 172
Gun show exemption?

Frank, thanks. One more hypothetical question. what if the sale takes place at a "gun show?" Does this change anything? Does the fact that the sale is to take place at a gun show change things, and or are there any special exemptions because it is a gun show? Is a gun show a "special zone" for lack of a better term, with different rules? I ask because it seems the media is always talking about the "gun show loophole" which, if there is no special zone, seems only to affect in-state sales.
__________________
Chop Chop!
Bosshoff is offline  
Old March 20, 2013, 04:12 PM   #7
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,126
There is no gun show loophole. There are no special federal rules for gun shows. If you buy at a gun show from an FFL, FFL rules apply. If you buy from a private party at a gun show, private party rules apply.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old March 20, 2013, 04:27 PM   #8
Bosshoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2004
Posts: 172
Spats, so an individual cannot purchase a weapon at a gun show which is not in his home state without the involvement of a FFL.
Got it.
__________________
Chop Chop!
Bosshoff is offline  
Old March 20, 2013, 04:33 PM   #9
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,126
Bingo!

ETA: If the transaction crosses state lines, an FFL must be involved. Where that FFL must be located depends on whether it's a long gun or handgun.

The gun show loophole is simply a myth. The rules apply at gun shows the same way they do everywhere else.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old March 20, 2013, 05:51 PM   #10
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,773
Private sale out of state?

Spats beat me to it.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old March 20, 2013, 06:05 PM   #11
hermannr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2011
Posts: 730
How come I keep missing the definition of a "firearm" here.

It is my understanding, if you wish to purchase a long gun in another state, you may, but it must be through a FFL in the state the purchase is made.

If you wish to purchase a handgun (concealable weapon) in another state, the transaction must go through an FFL in the purchasers state of residence.

Am I correct, or not?

The reason I am state it this way is in some states (NY) a "firearm" is only a concealable weapon. (new (un)safe act adds an AW as a "firearm")
hermannr is offline  
Old March 20, 2013, 06:07 PM   #12
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,126
You're correct and not missing anything. Frank quoted federal law. NY's definition of "firearm" does not change the federal definition.

ETA: Bosshoff, be sure to consult your state laws, as well.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 01:40 PM   #13
Wyoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,259
Quote:
[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
Question:

If my brother, living in another state, comes to my state for Christmas Holiday, I can't give him a hunting rifle as his present without transfering it through an FFL?

Sorry for the hijack.
__________________
Go Pokes!
Go Rams!
Wyoredman is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 01:46 PM   #14
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyoredman
Quote:
[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
...If my brother, living in another state, comes to my state for Christmas Holiday, I can't give him a hunting rifle as his present without transfering it through an FFL?...
No, you can't give him a rifle as a present without going through an FFL.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 01:47 PM   #15
Wyoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,259
Thanks Frank.

Good knowledge to have. Might have just saved me someday. Lots of laws to figure out.

Thanks again.
__________________
Go Pokes!
Go Rams!
Wyoredman is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 02:04 PM   #16
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,126
You can: (a) loan him a rifle for temporary sporting purposes (like going hunting or plinking); (b) give him a gift certificate or cash to go buy the rifle for himself (but not to buy it for you (see straw purchases)). But no, you cannot directly give him the rifle without going through an FFL.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 05:19 PM   #17
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
You can: (a) loan him a rifle for temporary sporting purposes (like going hunting or plinking);....
Yes, that is allowed under 18 USC 922(a)(5). However, if he takes it back home with him he violated 18 USC 922(a)(3), and that's good for up to five years in the federal slammer.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11074 seconds with 9 queries