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Old March 11, 2013, 05:13 PM   #1
jburrl90
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head space problem?

I recently started forming 30 herrett brass from 30-30 brass. I'm doing it in my full length sizing die with the decaping assembly removed. The cases chamber fine, however after firing I noticed a shiny ring around the shoulder. My primer also backed out a bit. When loaded again the primer stays seated when shot. I don't bump the shoulder when sizing the second time. But the first time they were full length sized. I believe the ring I'm seeing is the case stretching to fit the chamber is this correct thinking? And since the case now fits the chamber I'm assuming it can't stretch more and is safe to use. I cut a case open and I can see slight discoloring in that area. I anneal each case after I form it. So my question is if these cases are safe to use and if next time I form cases should I not push the shoulder back all the way to full length sized.

I'd appreciate any input I can get. Thank you.
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Old March 11, 2013, 06:59 PM   #2
243winxb
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Forming vs. Sizing

The Full length die may not need to contact the shell holder, when sizng, for the sized case to chamber correctly. When i was forming 7mm TCU out of 223 brass, the above applied. Forming dies push the shoulder back more than a FL die to account for the brass case's tendency to spring back after sizing. As for the shiny ring, it could be the start of case separation. I have had 223 brass separating in the lower part of the body. A bent paper clip is used by some to feel for a groove inside the case.
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Old March 11, 2013, 09:04 PM   #3
oldgunsmith
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A headspace problem with the .30 Herrett would be with the rim, not the shoulder.
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Old March 11, 2013, 09:25 PM   #4
jburrl90
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Its my understanding that even though its a rimmed cartridge it must space off the shoulder. At least that's what I've gathered from everything I've read.

I thought that by FL sizing I'd be fine but from other articles I've read the TC chambers arraignment different once the case is fire formed it shouldn't be FL sized. It should only bump the shoulder by .001 or so. Just enough to get the action closed. Is this correct?
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Old March 11, 2013, 09:27 PM   #5
F. Guffey
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“The cases chamber fine, however after firing I noticed a shiny ring around the shoulder” Shiny ring around the shoulder would be op the opposite end of the beginning of case head separation.

I do not understand the infatuation there is with full length sizing when the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face is unknown. When I form cases I form cases to fit the chamber between the shoulder and bolt face. Nothing like necking the case up to 338 cal then neck the case down until it chambers, it is not necessary the reloader neck up every case, seems the reloader would be curious enough to try the technique with one case or two cases.

Me? I purchased 1,000+ plus 30/06 new cases, I necked 200 of them up to 338 and or 35 Whelen with no plan to use them, but, knowing I would be needing them sooner or later I am ahead.

F. Guffey
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Old March 11, 2013, 09:41 PM   #6
F. Guffey
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Today, 06:59 PM #2
243winxb
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Full length die may not need to contact the shell holder, when sizng, for the sized case to chamber correctly. When i was forming 7mm TCU out of 223 brass, the above applied. Forming dies push the shoulder back more than a FL die to account for the brass case's tendency to spring back after sizing. As for the shiny ring, it could be the start of case separation. I have had 223 brass separating in the lower part of the body. A bent paper clip is used by some to feel for a groove inside the case.



Not fair, all my forming dies, 16 total, came with instructions, instructions not read become destructions. Then there is that part about jump-back, snap-back or spring back, all of my instruction instruct the user full length sizing is necessary after forming because the case is not full length sized, not the case body, not the shoulder and not the neck, again, full length sizing is necessary after forming with a forming die. The forming die is also a trim die. After forming a case attempt chambering it.

If a reloader could manage to get the shoulder of the case close to the shoulder of the chamber they could cut down on all that case travel.

Then there is that part where the case stretches and the shoulder moves, again, not fair, my case shoulders, when fire forming? are erased, the case does not stretch and the shoulder on my ejected cases is a new shoulder, not the old one.

F. Guffey
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Old March 12, 2013, 06:02 AM   #7
HiBC
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OP,have you considered a long,blunt bullet forced against the riflling to hold the case back against the bolt face?You might even look at an Oregon Trail True cast .309 cast bullet,see Oregon Trail's website.

Seat them long enough its hard to close the gunYou might even use a light crimp.

I can't promise it will work,but try 10 or so...see what happens.
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Old March 12, 2013, 08:18 AM   #8
243winxb
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Quote:
It should only bump the shoulder by .001 or so. Just enough to get the action closed. Is this correct?
Correct. Bump the shoulder back by using the FL die. You want a T/C action to lock with no resistince on closing. This lets the locking lugs fully engauge. This is how i set up my 30-30 & other T/C Contenders on the shoulder.
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Old March 12, 2013, 09:21 AM   #9
jburrl90
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Ok. So what I'm hearing is that a case can't separate at the shoulder and the shiny ring after firring is nothing? I'm thinking that when I for any new bras I should also make it just. Short enough to close the chamber. Not the FL sizing like I have been doing.

How does a long bullet touching the rifling help me fire form. I understand it'll hold the case tight to the face of the frame. Eliminating the backed out primer? Is that all its supposed to help with?
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Old March 12, 2013, 10:57 AM   #10
Lemmon
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I am at work and do not have my manuals with me to reference. I remember when doing 30 H that you only size till there is some resistance in closing the barrel on the action. That this will provide proper head-space for the TC. Now I got to go back to my work but that is how I did it years ago and had no head-space problems. It did require multiple adjustments until I got the die set to the right spot.

Lemmon from Rural South Carolina.... currently stuck in a highrise in Columbia, SC
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Old March 12, 2013, 11:08 AM   #11
F. Guffey
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Twice in my life I have experienced ring around the shoulder/neck juncture and case body separation at the case body/shoulder juncture. Not a problem for me but for others? Because of embedded memory work there is a problem with understanding stretch, flow and forming, then there is the perception there is one receiver and one set of answers. And trigger phrases, meaning a word triggers a response and the answer becomes an automatic response. with no variables.

F. Guffey

When someone instructs you to bump the shoulder back .001” always ask “HOW DO YOU DO THAT?”, after asking ask about spring-back, jump-back and or snap-back. To me there seems to be a gap between methods and techniques between making a wild guestimate of an adjustment of the die, spring of the press, case resistance to sizing and the presses ability to overcome the cases resistance to being sized.
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Old March 13, 2013, 03:12 PM   #12
243winxb
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Quote:
Ok. So what I'm hearing is that a case can't separate at the shoulder and the shiny ring after firring is nothing? I have never had a case separate at the shoulder/body junction. No harm is done with a case separation in the body. The head/web area is much more dangerous. I'm thinking that when I for any new bras I should also make it just. Short enough to close the chamber. Yes, control how much the FL die pushs the shoulder back. Not the FL sizing like I have been doing. Correct.

How does a long bullet touching the rifling help me fire form. I understand it'll hold the case tight to the face of the frame. Eliminating the backed out primer? Is that all its supposed to help with? It may help reduce the amount of stretching of the brass, but the firing pin strike can push the bullet into the case deeper. It may or may not work, keeping the brass from stretching. Stretching of the brass is what causes case separations.
Hope this help.
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Old March 16, 2013, 08:43 AM   #13
jburrl90
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Thanks for the help everyone. I've been keeping a close eye on stuff and everything appears to be fine. No seperations have occurred yet. And don't look like they will.
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Old March 16, 2013, 01:07 PM   #14
reynolds357
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JBurr, you herret head spaces off the rim. In my experience, T.C. is quite adept at screwing up headspacing even on their rimmed cartridges. I have a 7-30 Waters barrel that I have basically scrapped because they have it head spaced wrong. Trying to get that through the thick skulls of their Customer Non Service is a losing cause.
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Old March 16, 2013, 06:38 PM   #15
HiBC
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It may help to visualize how most of case stretch occurs.The firing pin strike drives the case forward till some feature like the rim or shoulder stops it.Pressure builds with ignition.The case expands.The case wall thickness is thinner forward,so it expands first forward.

The case walls grip the chamber walls.At this point,if the case head is not seated against the breech face,it is not supported.As the pressure rises,the case head will be forced back to the breech face,but the forward part of the case stays where it is.The case stretches.

If you can begin by keeping the case head firmly against the breech face,it is not driven forward,case stretch is greatly reduced.

It would be nice if the rim thicknesses and chambering were held tight enough to resolve this problem.Unfortunately,it does not work that way.

That is why controlling the head clearance via not setting the shoulder back is preferred.

Then,next time,the shoulder serves to keep the case against the breech face.

Folks who load belted magnums have the same problem.
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Old March 16, 2013, 07:19 PM   #16
jburrl90
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Ok. That makes sense. And that's what I've been doing is only sizing the neck. Everything appears to be fine. I've got three loads on my cases now.

But now I'm having another problem. The only powder giving me good groups is imr 4198 but its leaving unburnt powder in the barrel. I've loaded lighter loads and it looks like there's more powder in the barrel than with hotter ones. For example. I'm loading 110 hollow points over 17 grains of imr 4198. I'm getting inch groups but what about all that powder left in my barrel. With 150 grain bullets over 20 grains of imr 4198 I get the same one inch groups and a lot less unburnt powder but its still there. Is this bad? How can I fix this.

I've tried. H110 and lil gun and the gun hates them. It definitely likes the imr 4198 . I'm getting. 4 inch groups with the other powders. Is there a solution to this problem. Will that unburnt Powder hurt anything being in there when I shoot again.

Thanks again for all the help and advise.
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Old March 16, 2013, 08:35 PM   #17
Lemmon
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Update...Hornady 3rd Edition c.1980 pg 370 30 Herrett

Update...Hornady 3rd Edition c.1980 pg 370 30 Herrett addresses the head space problem in making cases for this cartridge. "....the size die should first adjusted so the action will not close on the sized case. the reloader must then turn the die in approximately a sixteenth of a revolution at a time, checking the sized case in the action after each adjustment. When the action clicks shut easily, the thie is properly adjusted."

Lemmon from Rural South Carolina....
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Old April 30, 2013, 06:41 AM   #18
awenger_md
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I'm a little late to this discussion, however I have loaded the 30 Herrett many times. For 5 or 6 years I shot IHMSA with this caliber (mid-late 80's) Lemmon has given you good info. An old Speer book I have from the 80's also gave me similar info. If you headspace off the rim as per Reynolds357, youi will get unacceptable accuracy. My experience of what has worked well is to run 30-30 cases thrugh the die, trim the neck to close to length with a dremel cutoff wheel, hacksaw, or something, then trim to final length with a case trimmer or die. I like to trim a couple thousandths less than the max for the cartridge. Next, run the brass through the sizer on more time. Double check necks for thickness in case they need reamed (usually not the case for 30-30 brass, but if you use 375 instead you may have to ream). Now, for your fire form load USE a 10% REDUCED load! After fireforming, I just neck resize only. After several firings, you will likely have to trim a bit depending on how hot your loads are. Even after trimming, you may notice it's a bit difficult to close your gun on the round. If so, you may have to barely push the shoulder back. However, everyone I know, and 2 of my old reloading guides instruct, that you should have to snap the gun closed with some resistance. If you stay just a little off the hottest loads, you will only rarely, need to trim and your brass will last WAY longer...a good thing since making brass is a PITA. Guys I know who load to just below where they get pressure signs, often only get 5 or 6 loadings. Using loads that are mid-range or slightly higher in my reloading guides gives me many loadings
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