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Old March 17, 2013, 05:14 PM   #101
Nanuk
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It's extremely important if it almost never happens.
There is data base on civilian shootings. The closest we can come to is LE gunfights. We must agree that the civilian and the LE profession will not necessarily be in the same situations - the Cop runs to the sound of gunfire. However, the civilian and the LE will likely be engaged with the same BG. So if we look at LE gunfights we see the following:

http://jjchronicles.com/2013/01/part...-rounds-fired/

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/ny...ted=print&_r=0

http://www.virginiacops.org/articles...ing/combat.htm

I am not a gambler, I survived over 30 years in some of the most dangerous areas of our country as a street cop. If want to limit your options and survivability by using 2 century old technology and no possibility of a combat reload, good luck. Maybe you will not need it, the odds are in your favor if you are willing to stake your life on someone else's opinion.
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Old March 18, 2013, 07:18 AM   #102
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"My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. "

Would have great respect for that 'weapon', even if that 'weapon' carried only a 44 cal cap and ball M1858 Remington Army revolver.

If you can shoot like Bill Hickok, you have my blessing, feel free to carry your Old West six-gun.

Some folks can. Most can't.

Happy trails.
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Old March 18, 2013, 09:21 AM   #103
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If want to limit your options and survivability by using 2 century old technology...
The technology you speak of is 30yrs behind the DA and about as much behind the automatic. It's all old technology, not much new under the sun in the last 100yrs.

Like I said, I don't carry a reload anyway, no matter what I'm carrying.

I understand where you're coming from, I really do. But I'm not a cop and a civilian doesn't carry for the same purposes as law enforcement. Like you said, we move away from the gunfire, not towards it. If I was a cop, I guaran-damn-tee you I wouldn't be carrying a single action revolver. Different tools for different purposes, especially if you don't have to conceal it.

For the record, I don't carry an SA all the time anyway. My primary carry weapons are an Officer's length Kimber .45 and a S&W Bodyguard .380, because they're easier to conceal. I only carry my sixguns in cool weather, when the mood strikes.
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Old March 18, 2013, 11:58 AM   #104
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The technology you speak of is 30yrs behind the DA and about as much behind the automatic.
Only if you count the first designs. By your logic Metallic cartridges are just a little newer than cap and ball, so why not carry a 36 Navy?


Quote:
It's all old technology, not much new under the sun in the last 100yrs.
you are wrong there, There are new innovations every day, Glocks are 25 years old.

Quote:
Like I said, I don't carry a reload anyway, no matter what I'm carrying.
That is your decision.

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I understand where you're coming from, I really do. But I'm not a cop and a civilian doesn't carry for the same purposes as law enforcement.
You are mistaken there, The same reason-Last ditch self defense. It is only some of the situations may be different.

Quote:
My primary carry weapons are an Officer's length Kimber .45 and a S&W Bodyguard .380, because they're easier to conceal. I only carry my sixguns in cool weather, when the mood strikes.
Nothing wrong with that. What I keep saying is carrying is a commitment, I carried the same gun concealed that I carried in uniform. Now I carry a Glock or a revolver, but I always carry 2 reloads minimum, maybe more depending on where I am going and what I am doing. There are fights you can avoid and there are fights you cannot avoid. I always carry a gun that has the best chance for me to dominate the fight and win.


For an eye opener, go shoot a local IDPA match with a single action revolver, there is a reason the old gunfighters carried 3 or 4 revolvers.
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Old March 18, 2013, 12:32 PM   #105
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Quote:
Only if you count the first designs.
Do you know how much difference there is between the early S&W hand ejectors and the current crop? Not very much at all. Your 629 is nearly identical internally to the Triple Lock. Functionally, they are no different.


Quote:
By your logic Metallic cartridges are just a little newer than cap and ball, so why not carry a 36 Navy?
They are only a little newer than the percussion cap, if 50yrs is "a little". Metallic cartridges are a huge improvement and modern cartridges are far more reliable than cap `n ball.


Quote:
you are wrong there, There are new innovations every day, Glocks are 25 years old.
Modern appearances and materials mean very little. Functionally, there is little difference.


Quote:
You are mistaken there, The same reason-Last ditch self defense. It is only some of the situations may be different.
There is a huge difference. As we both said, LEO's head towards gunfire, we retreat from it. That's a very significant difference in intent and they require very different tools and mindsets.


Quote:
I carried the same gun concealed that I carried in uniform.
I carry the same sixgun I would outdoors. While you can certainly use an outdoor pistol for self defense, Glocks are rather useless off the street.


Quote:
For an eye opener, go shoot a local IDPA match with a single action revolver, there is a reason the old gunfighters carried 3 or 4 revolvers.
Big difference between a gunfight and a course of fire that REQUIRES higher capacity pistols and reloads. Rather, I would challenge you to go to a CAS match and beat those guys for the first five or six shots.


Bottom line, from the very beginning, carry what you are most proficient and comfortable with. Not everybody has the same preferences, purposes and skillsets. If you did as much single action shooting and as little double action or semi-auto shooting as I do, you'd probably look at it differently.
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Old March 18, 2013, 02:57 PM   #106
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http://www.gunblast.com/Mernickle.htm

When I carry an auto I always carry a spare magazine, not because I' afraid that the seven cartridges my auto's hold isn't enough. Because generally speaking an auto has a higher likelyhood of malfunction and that can usually be attributed to a magazine problem.

When carrying a revolver (SA or DA) I don't bother with spare ammo.

I think a handt SA revolver is a great carry tool. I feel the same about the Bond Arms two shot jobs (although I don't personally own one) and would feel pretty good carrying one of those.

Carry what suits you and ignore the goofballs.
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:49 PM   #107
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New frontier,

I stated earlier in the thread that I competed in CAS for several years so I know how that game works and even a 1911 beats the socks off of a SAA for those 5 shots unless you shoot it like Bob Munden. What if you miss? I train and prepare for my worst nightmare scenario, that means preparing for multiple determined adversaries. To prepare for the guy who is scared off by your magic talisman is setting yourself up for failure.

You say Glocks are useless off the street, there are many people who successfully hunt with Glocks chambered in 10mm and wildcat's such as the 460 Rowland.

There is no appreciable design improvements in semi auto's since the late 1800's? Just look at the changes to the 1911 design since then.

The percussion cap was invented in 1842 and the first metallic cartridge in 1845 which were rimfire's followed by Boxer primers in 1867.

To survive and thrive we must adapt to our changing environment. Charles Darwin had this to say about the subject:

Quote:
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change.
In the struggle for survival, the fittest win out at the expense of their rivals because they succeed in adapting themselves best to their environment.
I understand your love for single action six guns, I love them too, I own 4. So can you make faster hits with your 1911 or your hogleg?

You mentioned mindset, that is the single most critical aspect to self defense. The tool you use is insignificant without the proper mindset to win the fight. By that I mean once the fight cannot be avoided or the situation deescalated I am going to engage and destroy my opponent, to do less put my life at more jeopardy.
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Old March 18, 2013, 07:31 PM   #108
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Single Action as Primary Carry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
To prepare for the guy who is scared off by your magic talisman is setting yourself up for failure.
.
Not only is that statement silly and inflammatory it is untrue. Talismans do not shoot high velocity projectiles. It doesn't matter how many moon clips (or whatever... You pick) you are carrying if your opponent puts one solid hit on you with a powerful man stopping chambering. You've admitted that the tool matters less than the person, can you admit that just maybe a guy with a SAA could prevail over another guy with a semi auto, or DA revolver? Or even several bad guys with newer technology?

I like my 1911 and my SA/DA autos, I like my DA revolvers and crazy me will carry a SA revolver too. At least I'm not the only crazy. Heck, maybe you are the only sane person around Nanuk.

Last edited by wyobohunter; March 18, 2013 at 07:39 PM.
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Old March 18, 2013, 07:42 PM   #109
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You've admitted that the tool matters less than the person, can you admit that just maybe a guy with a SAA could prevail over another guy with a semi auto, or DA revolver? Or even several bad guys with newer technology?
I did not say it could not be done, I have said all along that it was a handicap.

I think this discussion has run it's course for me.
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Old March 18, 2013, 07:46 PM   #110
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This has developed into an interesting thread.

Quote:
I like my 1911 and my SA/DA autos, I like my DA revolvers and crazy me will carry a SA revolver too. At least I'm not the only crazy. Heck, maybe you are the only sane person around Nanuk.
I agree and I think you should carry what you feel comforable with. However, Nanuk is basically saying that a SAA is a handicap when compared to most other handgun types. Of course we should assume that newfrontier45 is good with a SAA, but Nanuk's point is why would you handicap yourself? Of course perhaps he would win a gun fight with the SAA, but its not as good as a quality DA revolver or most semi autos when talking handgun vs handgun. Of course, as Newfrontier45 pointed out, more goes into a gunfight than just the gun itself.

In my opinion, the amount of time spent on mastering the SAA, and mastering its use as a CW, the time could have been spent mastering a more advanced handgun type, which overall, I think is Nanuk's point here.

In the end, Newfrontier45 may never need better than a SAA, and perhaps you won't either wyobohunter. As for me, I would rather have the most current platform available that I am skilled with, which IMO increases my odds of survival.

Imagine briefly that the perp is really good with his glock, equal in skill to someone with a SAA. At that point, the SAA guy needs a little luck IMO or perhaps a mistake by the glock guy. If the skills are equal, the handgun type comes much more into play. So do you expect to be a better gunman than your adversary? Since its my life on the line, I don't want to assume anything. I don't want to have any disadvantage at all, at least any avoidable one. I'd rather have a more advanced handgun and hope that my adversary has the less advanced version. Of course that doesn't guarantee anything, but I think it helps.

No one is wrong here either. Everyone has to do what they feel is best, and everyone is free to choose.
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Old March 18, 2013, 07:53 PM   #111
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Y'all, please quit the bickering and get back on track.
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Old March 18, 2013, 08:19 PM   #112
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Single Action as Primary Carry?

I just feel that there is no real world handicap for an ordinary "had to use my CCW" situation against one or more attackers. A center mass hit is a center mass hit.

Although, I can admit that the high cap magazine would be advantageous as the number of attackers increases or the coolheadedness of the defender decreases.

I just avoid areas where packs of thugs lurk so do not feel under gunned with 6 shots. If I were intentionally going to a bad place with lots of bad guys I'd get my head checked... And carry my 1911 as a backup to the rifle.

To each his own.

Almost forgot- as my fine motor skills deteriorate that heavy chunk of steel will make a durn fine club =];-)

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Old March 18, 2013, 08:50 PM   #113
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I've carried a single action revolver when it was my only handgun.

The main drawback, in my opinion, is the inability to fire it quickly with one hand. (at least, MY inability to fire it one-handed under pressure)

Luckily, I now have other options, but do carry a single action when woods walking......

44 Spec Ruger Sheriff


or.....45ACP Birdshead
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Old March 18, 2013, 09:14 PM   #114
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technology is a wonderfull thing. if it wern't for technology we all might still be swinging clubs. semi autos and double action revolvers are modern achievments. going to war i would probably choose something more advaanced than a ssa type pistol. having said that i would not feel uncomfortabe with a pair of saa 45 lc's with a matched 45lc winchester 94 and a 12 ga double coach gun. they may not be long range sniper arms but good for short range, if needed a nice sharps in 45/70 would still make a good long range choice.
yep, while a ssa pistol, a winchester lever action, a doubl barrel 12 ga coach gun and a sharps 45/70 may not be the fastest shooting high tech weapons, they certainly have a winning history behind them.
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Old March 18, 2013, 10:47 PM   #115
newfrontier45
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Quote:
The percussion cap was invented in 1842...
Might wanna recheck your history. Think late 1810's to early 1820's.


Quote:
...the time could have been spent mastering a more advanced handgun type...
Life is too short to spend it shooting firearms I do not care for. I spent 15yrs shooting Glocks and have no intention of ever going back there.


Quote:
there are many people who successfully hunt with Glocks chambered in 10mm and wildcat's such as the 460 Rowland.
So? To flip your argument around, if a single action is not ideal for self defense then the Glock is also not ideal for woods work. Sure, some people use them. You may even say that a true believer that uses SA's for self defense is no different from a true believer who uses Glocks for hunting. Fact remains, the Glock's trigger, sights, accuracy and chamberings are inferior to a good revolver. What it boils down to is preference because......
Quote:
I own 4
I own three dozen. Only two DA's (of nine) and two semi-autos (of ten) suitable for concealed carry. Hence the slightly different opinion on this matter.


Quote:
So can you make faster hits with your 1911 or your hogleg?
For deliberate, aimed fire, there is little to no difference.


We need to just agree to disagree because you'll never convince me that tens of thousands of rounds a year does not make up for a perceived technological advantage.
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Old March 19, 2013, 08:35 AM   #116
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Very well, then.
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If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
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