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Old March 15, 2013, 02:17 PM   #76
Winchester_73
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Fanning is a Hollywood invention, unless you still think slip hammering is fanning.
I already explained why I said that in my previous post which you didn't read. I never observed slip firing before, and I had to assume the person who offered the video would get one which had fanning. It a way, its almost the same thing but it is different.
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Old March 15, 2013, 05:04 PM   #77
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Winchester 73:

Maybe I misunderstood....I thought you were showing an example on how a SA-revolver shooter would run the gun in a SD situation. I put my video up as an example of how one should run the gun using a real-life example from those who train with them. Even Gunsite has classes on using SA-revolvers for SD that teach this method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=qLzv_ZlHE2Q

....I'm just trying to keep it real.....
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Old March 15, 2013, 05:06 PM   #78
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Seeker Two

Now I understand, and no problem. A SA could be a very effective SD gun with practice. Of course, this depends on what you're practicing, and what goals one has in mind as well.

I'm not even a real SA guy, but I got into this thread - sometimes me thinks I take this stuff too seriously
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Old March 15, 2013, 07:51 PM   #79
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CAS SHOOTIN

Guys,
The kind of shooting in a CAS match, is the same kind of shooting police use in training using "hogan's alley" or something simular. The only difference is that CAS is for fun, and hogan alley is simular but it is training for officers to stay alive. Could a CAS Shooter do well and survive in a fire fight? That is debatable. CAS Shooters never shoot in a stressfull life or death situation. Could CAS shooter do well in a short fire-fight using a SA revolver?? Probablely, it just depends of how the shooter respond to and handle the stress of the few seconds of the fire-fight.

V/R
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Old March 15, 2013, 10:23 PM   #80
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An interesting sidenote to the use of single action in a defensive role was that of a resident of NW Colorado driving near Hayden, CO, and seeing the local chief of police in pursuit of a car with a person shooting out of the vehicle at the police car. Shortly after the pass, the cars went off the road, and three occupants of the suspect vehicle ran up into some rocks on a foothill. The police chief took a position of cover, and was still subsequently shot in the abdomen (from a .22 rimfire rifle), but temporarily refrained from returning fire upon seeing at least two of the suspects as juveniles obviously in their early teens. The citizen in the passing car was armed with a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum, knew the police chief, and decided to give assistance. He worked his way up, behind the three suspects, and saw that they were ALL juveniles, later found to be 9, 11, and 15, from Rock Springs, WY, who had stolen a car and were on a "joy ride". The armed citizen took cover, and then let one round of .44 Mag fire into the air, and literally stunned the juveniles into surrender. For all it's shortcomings, a single action can be had in awesome chamberings (.44 mag, .454, etc), and on occasion, the effects of concussion, extreme penetration, etc, MIGHT offer advantages that mini-pocket guns do not.
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Old March 15, 2013, 11:24 PM   #81
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Note to "ClydeFrog" and others who say that a DA will call you a "cowboy".

If any moron of a DA tried that in court, the proper counter is "you're playing Goldilocks Gun Control".

Talk to the jury. Explain to them that if you carried a handgun identical to what the local police used, you'd be called a "cop wanna-be". If you used a 1920s-era Colt revolver they'd call you "the second coming of Al Capone". If you used a snubby Charter Arms they'd point out that was the gun used by the killer known as "Son Of Sam". And on, and on, and on. Guns are tools. They've been used by good and bad people, for good and bad purposes. All of them. Any gun you carried could be demonized somehow. You carried a gun you knew how to shoot accurately and safely, which is why you're there in court and the other guy ain't. The fact that the DA is bringing up this horsecrap is proof that all he has is horsecrap, innuendo and lies. They need to ask "was this a justified use of deadly force" and the answer is "yes" - at that point the gun doesn't matter.
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Old March 16, 2013, 01:35 AM   #82
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However, couldn't one use your logic to argue against carrying an antiquated double action S&W, as opposed to a high capacity automatic???
I have been bouncing from the N frame 44 Mag to the Glock 357 Sig.

Quote:
For all it's shortcomings, a single action can be had in awesome chamberings (.44 mag, .454, etc), and on occasion, the effects of concussion, extreme penetration, etc, MIGHT offer advantages that mini-pocket guns do not.
Double action revolvers are chambered in the same calibers.
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Old March 16, 2013, 01:38 AM   #83
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> Double action revolvers are chambered in the same calibers.

Right, but the SA innards are tougher for the same weight of gun, and the "roll in your hand" tendencies allow you to control more recoil in a smaller gun with an SA than with a DA. At least if you do it right AND have an SA grip that fits your hand correctly.
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Old March 16, 2013, 08:44 AM   #84
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this aint Dodge city.
Then we can say you don't believe a two-shot .45 Colt derringer can save your life, a six-shoot seecamp, or even my five-shot 638... You don't usually have time to reload in civilian encounters anyway, as you don't have police cover, vests, and cover sometimes. In up close on the street gun fights, you shoot what ya got, and you seriously think a .45 SAA Army can't do it ... I beg to differ.

Besides, folks STILL LIVE IN DODGE CITY KANSAS, be respectful!
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Old March 16, 2013, 09:22 AM   #85
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The phrase "This ain't Dodge City" has come up often on forums. I am reminded that the old Tombstone Epitaph of Tombstone, Arizona posted an obituary each day of those killed the day before in shootings.

The current Memphis Commercial Appeal does pretty much the same thing today.

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Old March 16, 2013, 09:27 AM   #86
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The city of Memphis is filled each day with shootings, robbery attempts, domestic violence, or arguments over money, wine, or women.

What always seems odd to me is that more often than not, when someone is charged in the shooting, it is often reported the "he has a record of violence," or he served "two years of a fifty year sentence," or "he (or she) had been off their medication."

Many people live or die based on someone's decision whether to take their medication or not.

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Old March 16, 2013, 11:04 AM   #87
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What you can do & what you should do...

My point in this forum topic, is what you can do & what you should do are 2 different things.
To carry a SA revolver & use it in a critical incident is dicey. No matter how many SASS or cowboy shooting matches you won.
Can you safely hold a human being at gun point in a high stress event with a SA Colt SAA? Or a Freedom Arms .454?
Years ago, in the early 1990s, a young exchange student was shot & killed in a tragic mishap in the Baton Rouge LA area. The unarmed youth was lost & went to the home of the wrong person. The student was also wearing KISS make up, excited to go to a American rock concert with friends.
The home owner freaked & pulled out a hunting type .44magnum revolver shooting the victim several times.
The home owner was later cleared of criminal charges but the firearm type was a major factor in the incident.

I recently went over the CT, www.CT.gov/despp , website & read that CT mandates that NO single action revolvers or semi-auto pistols(Hi Powers, 1911s, etc) can be authorized for retired LE officers, LEOSA(Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act).
As I posted, what you can do & what you should do in 2013 are different subjects. You can tote a Serbu short barrel 12ga or a Desert Eagle .50AE but would you need to?
As for a jury or prosecutor, the "hey so what" mindset can lead to a lot of legal problems later.
Critical incidents are not TV cop shows or Hollywood movies. Carrying a SA revolver is not a smart idea.

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Old March 16, 2013, 03:43 PM   #88
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First of all, I have no intention of holding a human being at gunpoint. That risks your being shot by police arriving on the scene, also endangers other Memphis Police officers who have a history of shooting fellow police officers while shooting at other targets.

When I draw my gun, I'm going to bust a cap. I will not draw my gun unless the threat of death or injury is present, then the threat is going to be shot.

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Old March 16, 2013, 03:51 PM   #89
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Clyd Frog said:
Quote:
Years ago, in the early 1990s, a young exchange student was shot & killed in a tragic mishap in the Baton Rouge LA area. The unarmed youth was lost & went to the home of the wrong person. The student was also wearing KISS make up, excited to go to a American rock concert with friends.
The home owner freaked & pulled out a hunting type .44magnum revolver shooting the victim several times.
The home owner was later cleared of criminal charges but the firearm type was a major factor in the incident.
And why so? Would it have made any difference if he had used a double action only 9mm, or a DAO Smith & Wesson revolver? He shot an unarmed man who came to his door, dressed as a freak. Did this person pose a threat? And how did he do so?

Something is awfully wrong here.

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Old March 16, 2013, 03:54 PM   #90
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A case came up in Memphis some time ago regarding a "self defense" shooting.

The judge's comment was to the effect that self defense claim was valid only for the first magazine. Reloading and continuing to shoot the victim placed doubt on the self defense claim.

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Old March 16, 2013, 04:21 PM   #91
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Ignoring all the back and forth, I'd say if you shoot a single action well you'll do just fine with it as your primary.
I'm no "pistolero" but I can thumb back a hammer just about as fast as I can line my gun back up, so I don't see aimed fire happening all that much slower.
Reloads are going to be quite a lot slower, but needing to reload before you can escape - at least to cover - is pretty unlikely.
Honestly the biggest downside I see is the size of the typical SA revolver, but I also know that a lot of guys manage to carry big guns just fine.

Open a history book and you'll see countless examples of people sucessfully defending themselves - even against multiple opponents - with single action six guns.
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Old March 16, 2013, 09:14 PM   #92
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Open a history book and you'll see countless examples of people sucessfully defending themselves - even against multiple opponents - with single action six guns.

That is my point. I am not saying they are bad guns, just obsolete for a modern gunfight. In the end it is you behind carry what you want. I know how fast I can get 6 aimed shots off with my 629 VS my Super Black Hawk that is why I choose the 629 for carry. Besides, I can reload a lot faster with the 629 if I need to. The strength of the action means nothing in practical terms for SD loads. I also do not want the gun to "roll" in my grip, I want it stuck like glue so that every successive shot has the same exact grip without the need to readjust or shift my grip.
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Old March 16, 2013, 09:24 PM   #93
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I know how fast I can get 6 aimed shots off with my 629 VS my Super Black Hawk that is why I choose the 629 for carry.
But you do understand that what is true for you may not hold true for others, correct?

The single action should not roll "in" your hand, rather your hand should roll up 'with' the sixgun. I've been a serious single action shooter for 25yrs and I've never had the need to shift my grip around between shots. If you do, you're probably doing something wrong and shouldn't be carrying a single action for defensive purposes anyway.
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Old March 16, 2013, 10:38 PM   #94
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I've often wondered about this .... In home invasion instances, and other times a gun is used for defence (Not offense like LEOs storming a crack house or drug dealers, or Army Urban combat here), has there ever been a need to 'reload'? It is hard for me to image, that a gang of 4-20 guys would be be storming your house that would require so much fire-power. I hear of guys packing 17 rounds (now 7 in NY... probably soon to be 5 and then 1) as primary and others as backup, and having 'several' magazines ready to go.... Sounds like a war zone scenario to me. Of course maybe you 'need' that many with 9mm to do any damage ..... In the instance just above there was only one intruder.
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:51 AM   #95
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I wonder if there are any statistics available indicating how often a reload is done during a legal defensive shooting.
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Old March 17, 2013, 11:06 AM   #96
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I have my Bisley Blackhawk 45 colt on my ccw, but only because it's my hunting revolver and just wanted to be able to drive on the road with it when I'm driving between ranch properties I have been given permission to hunt...and don't have to mess with unloading & locking up/reloading the weapon.

Could you use a single action...yes. It's not my first choice. I usually use a DA revolver for my ccw choice.
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Old March 17, 2013, 12:16 PM   #97
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But you do understand that what is true for you may not hold true for others, correct?
Which is why I used the personal pronoun (I), and why I stated carry what you want.

The way you describe the "Roll" is how my magnum revolvers all recoil whether single or double action, therefore I do not see the concern over it.

Quote:
The single action should not roll "in" your hand, rather your hand should roll up 'with' the sixgun. I've been a serious single action shooter for 25yrs and I've never had the need to shift my grip around between shots. If you do, you're probably doing something wrong and shouldn't be carrying a single action for defensive purposes anyway.
Nope, as I stated, mine don't move in my hand. I guess I misunderstood "roll" as the natural reaction to heavy recoil.
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Old March 17, 2013, 12:45 PM   #98
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I wonder if there are any statistics available indicating how often a reload is done during a legal defensive shooting.
Statistics in and of themselves are useless. They average the numbers, and if you use statistics to rationalize you choice then I think you are in for a surprise. How many single action six gun toting gents here only carry 5 and not 6? I know there are a couple here, you are stacking the odd's against you.

One of our own members undertook this task and I feel it is worth bringing to this discussion. I was critical, as I am of everything, that is just me.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...hlight=johnksa
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Old March 17, 2013, 01:21 PM   #99
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Statistics in and of themselves are useless.
It's extremely important if it almost never happens. If there is NOTHING to support the fear that the SA's reload speed is a disadvantage, then you have no argument. It's rather difficult to justify the fear of something that is statistically unfounded. Like the warnings about handloads for self defense. For all the bickering about that, it's still just a theory. I believe I better stack the odds in my favor every time I spend two hours popping a couple hundred rounds though single actions, than I would if I carried a gun I rarely practiced with.....because an internet expert thought it was more socially acceptable.

I don't carry a reload anyway so it's really all moot.

Like Ayoob writes in the current edition of American Handgunner:

"...courage, determination and skill will be more important than what kind of gun you have."
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Old March 17, 2013, 01:38 PM   #100
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Winchester 73, please stop calling it hammer fanning. NO ONE in CAS(which I compete in) calls it hammer fanning. The proper name is called Hammer slipping. Its Not as fast as movie fanning, but its easier on the internal parts, and is a more complete action, less likely to short stroke the hammer.

Oh and FYI its the same technique taught at the Defensive Revolver Single Action, at Gunsite.

So ya, those to people, will resort to standard techniques if they use there SAA for self defense. That technique is called slipping...

Secondly, you keep ignoring the fact that sass does a good job of practicing other skills. Namely transitioning between guns and moving and shooting with pressure.
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