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Old March 14, 2013, 07:25 PM   #51
Nanuk
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You cannot usually pick the fight you are going to be in. The fight is going to be what the fight is going to be. If I were up against BG's toting single action six guns I would be fine with one, however, this aint Dodge city.

As romantic and quaint as it may be you will be at a serious disadvantage if you ever find your self in a gun fight so armed.

You may have seen a non trained amateur attempting to reload a double action revolver, never confuse that with what a good shooter can accomplish. There are also plenty of guys around that shoot J frames pretty good.
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Old March 14, 2013, 08:34 PM   #52
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I don't consider it to be "romantic and quaint" to defend myself with the tool I am the most proficient with. Although I don't expect those who are not proficient with them to understand. Any perceived advantage you might think your autoloader affords you is just that, perceived. Mindset, situational awareness, weapon proficiency and staying cool under pressure are all VASTLY more important than your chosen equipment. If you think your autoloader gives you an advantage for the first five or six shots, just because it's an autoloader with higher capacity, you would be gravely mistaken.
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Old March 14, 2013, 09:02 PM   #53
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Most people who carry J-Frames do not carry a speed loader, maybe speed strips, but either way the reload probably won't be that fast, and you have 5 rounds of 38's, vs 5 or six rounds of 45's to to get the job done.

If you want to talk speed of shooting, I shot a bowling pin match one time with a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 mag and had one of the fastest times of the day, shooting against 1911's and various doubleaction revolvers. Of course the trick was not to miss, so I didn't need a reload and the 44mag always cleared the pins from the table.

So to tell you the truth, I would not feel like I was at much of a disavantage with a large caliber singleaction against a Wonder 9, under most realistic confrontations I can dream up, while carrying CCW

What do I really carry? It just depends, could be a Colt Mustang Pocket lite, or Glock 26, to a Lightweight Commander 1911, but I have also carried on occasion a Colt 45 singleaction replica, or a Ruger Singleaction, but the singleaction is a thinking man's gun, and spraying and praying is not an option, but if the chips were to really fall, I would at least choose to have with me at the time, a Singleaction 45 or 44, vs a mouse gun or a J-frame, and that's not because I can't shoot my mouseguns or j-frames accurately because I can.
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Old March 14, 2013, 09:34 PM   #54
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Thank you, newfrontier,

As a poster noted earlier, most of the naysayers are casting the issue through their own (nonexistent) proficiency with a single action revolver. Why micturate on another gun owner's choice of weapon? Perhaps we're well advised to suggest that sunaj (the OP) find a different firearm, if any (he's from California, after all), and leave the fanning on the back lot.

Newfrontier rightly notes situational awareness and mindset are key. An extreme example: A gentleman open carrying a replica Remington 1875 with a 7 1/2 barrel found himself in a rather Hollywoodesque shootout in a Stop-n-Rob in Richmond, Virginia four years ago. He prevailed despite breaking the trigger of his weapon diving for cover. In fact, he ended up hand-to-hand, pistol-whipping the robber, who had already shot the store's owner twice. The point being, this guy was ready to fight. Oh, and no one, not even the hardened criminals, noticed his openly carried SA revolver.

Go with what you know, baby!

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Old March 14, 2013, 10:23 PM   #55
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He could've pistol-whipped the robber faster with an automatic.
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Old March 14, 2013, 10:44 PM   #56
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I feel fairly confident

that I can say, just speaking for myself, that Mr Wright quite possibly desrves a spot on Mt Rushmore
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Old March 14, 2013, 10:58 PM   #57
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Any perceived advantage you might think your autoloader affords you is just that, perceived.
Perception is based on training and experience, who mentioned an autoloader?


Quote:
Mindset, situational awareness, weapon proficiency and staying cool under pressure are all VASTLY more important than your chosen equipment.
Absolutely

Quote:
If you think your autoloader gives you an advantage for the first five or six shots, just because it's an autoloader with higher capacity, you would be gravely mistaken.
Its the Indian, not the bow.

Quote:
Most people who carry J-Frames do not carry a speed loader, maybe speed strips, but either way the reload probably won't be that fast, and you have 5 rounds of 38's, vs 5 or six rounds of 45's to to get the job done.
I am not most people, my J frame is a BUG and it is a 357 magnum that loads with moon clips, and I can load it pretty darn fast.

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So to tell you the truth, I would not feel like I was at much of a disavantage with a large caliber singleaction against a Wonder 9, under most realistic confrontations I can dream up, while carrying CCW
I don't carry a wonder nine and never alluded to, never assume.

Quote:
As a poster noted earlier, most of the naysayers are casting the issue through their own (nonexistent) proficiency with a single action revolver.
Actually I am quite proficient with single action revolvers, having been shooting them for over 40 years and actually competing in CAS for several years. There again, never assume.

My current carry piece in my 629 PC.
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Old March 14, 2013, 11:07 PM   #58
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So who else believes that the SAA "fanning" capability is a tactical advantage, if you practice it?

Here is how easy it really is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxYdbGHzaTk
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Old March 15, 2013, 12:01 AM   #59
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....or you can watch how they do it in real life....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=or8547n_M7k

....so easy that even a girl can do it....

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Old March 15, 2013, 07:53 AM   #60
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Seeker two,

I suppose you understand that we were talking about a real live self defense situation, which involved a SA revolver and multiple attackers (which, IMO, fanning there is total fantasy) and you instead show us what some Clint Eastwood wannabee with a cowboy hat can do against a target that doesn't shoot back? Probably not the best analogy is it?

So no one else gets confused here, my simple point was, fanning a SAA has no place in a SD scenario, and if someone thinks they can do it, or do it well, against multiple attackers, like the Man with No Name, then that person is a fool.
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Old March 15, 2013, 08:09 AM   #61
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and if someone thinks they can do it, or do it well, against multiple attackers, like the Man with No Name, then that person is a fool.

Actually, he DID have a name......several, actually.

In "Fist full of Dollars" he was "Joe".

In "For a few Dollars more" he was "Manco".

In "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" he was "Blondie".



But, your SD point is a valid one.
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Old March 15, 2013, 08:32 AM   #62
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Winchester 73:

That "wannabe" happens to be a multiple-time world champion single-action shooter....as is his granddaughter. And, if you believe that we fight like we train, the video shows that they'll both do just fine in a SD situation with a single-action revolver. In addition, I'm showing a real-life application of shooting techniques...not Hollywood fiction. What's next?....demonstrating proper gun-drawing technique from the cantina scene in STAR WARS?....

Are you going to believe Hollywood....or your eyes?....
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Old March 15, 2013, 08:51 AM   #63
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Actually, he DID have a name......several, actually.

In "Fist full of Dollars" he was "Joe".

In "For a few Dollars more" he was "Manco".

In "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" he was "Blondie".
True, but if you paid attention in the movies, most of the people in the movie knew nothing about him, including his name. It was if he came out of nowhere, yet had a profound presence.

I was aware of the names that you mentioned, but on the other hand, its not like he referred to himself with those names. Those names could have been attached to him, but who was he really? Hence, "Man with No Name" trilogy.

Quote:
That "wannabe" happens to be a multiple-time world champion single-action shooter....as is his granddaughter. And, if you believe that we fight like we train, the video shows that they'll both do just fine in a SD situation with a single-action revolver. In addition, I'm showing a real-life application of shooting techniques...not Hollywood fiction. What's next?....demonstrating proper gun-drawing technique from the cantina scene in STAR WARS?....

Are you going to believe Hollywood....or your eyes?....
Allow me to clarify: he is good at what he does, but that video has nothing to do with SD. I bet you even THOSE TWO, being who they are, would probably go with a standard shooting technique for a SA in a SD scenario, since their lives are potentially on the line with a SD encounter. CAS is not real life, even though the guns are real. CAS being not like a real life SD encounter, is an important determination to make, esp in this conversation. No, I do not believe they would attempt to use their fanning (which their fanning really is more precise than other methods) in a SD scenario. Imagine how fast they could their SA revolver in the standard method. Why would they ever need to fan?

My main point was that their prowess at shooting metal sheets has nothing to do with the conventional wisdom of the fanning practice in a SD scenario. Of course he is award winning, but what does that have to do with the topic of a SA revolver in a SD scenario? Not a damn thing when you think about it. If you want to point out that it could be done by someone crazy enough to attempt it, or that he of all people could do it, I agree, but my question is if fanning is a wise consideration for a SA revolver user in a SD scenario? No, it is not.
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Old March 15, 2013, 09:47 AM   #64
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Winchester 73:

1. What Evil Roy & Holy Terror are doing isn't fanning...it's slip-shooting (trigger held back, weak-hand thumb cocking & releasing the hammer). This technique is well-known with those who've studied the use of SA sixguns....people like Jim Wilson, John Taffin, Bill Jordan, & Massad Ayoob. It's an excellent way to get hits on target quickly.....as you can see.

2. You showed Hollywood & called it a valid example. I showed real life & you called it unrealistic. Do you also consider the training videos from Gunsite & I.C.E. unrealistic because the targets don't shoot back?

....Let's put aside the fantasy & look at reality....
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Old March 15, 2013, 10:05 AM   #65
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Obviously a person is entitled to fight and die with the weapon of their choice...
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Old March 15, 2013, 10:16 AM   #66
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If you think what Evil Roy is doing is fanning, then you need to go back to school and no, you probably shouldn't carry a single action for self defense. I don't even know if they are slip-hammering. Either way, that IS the way a single action should be run in a self defense situation.


Quote:
Imagine how fast they could their SA revolver in the standard method.
What exactly would that be?


Quote:
Actually I am quite proficient with single action revolvers, having been shooting them for over 40 years and actually competing in CAS for several years. There again, never assume.
Then you are the exception. However, couldn't one use your logic to argue against carrying an antiquated double action S&W, as opposed to a high capacity automatic???

The point being made is to use whatever you are most proficient with. If you are MORE proficient with a DA, then yes, I don't think anyone would argue your choice. I am not. As said, some of us do way more shooting with single actions than DA's or autos.
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Old March 15, 2013, 10:34 AM   #67
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I'm not even that good at CAS shooting & often have stages ( 10 rounds of single action revolver ( 5 in each of 2 guns ), 10 rounds of lever action rifle, & at least 4 rounds through my double barrel shotgun, including the transition between guns & targets ) that time out at around 20 seconds ( I think my best is 16 seconds )... not smoking fast, but not too shabby for a old guy newbie... I'm still new enough, that my goal is to hit all the targets, then worry about time... with 10 stages, that's a lot of shots... but I have gotten a couple "clean" sheets ( 100% hits ) at times as I listed...

I shoot in the classic cowboy class, so my stuff is not all "slicked up" & I really only compete against myself, keeping records of my times, & trying to continually improve on those...

since I most often carry a single action in some form, I think of this as 1st "fun", but also as tactical training

Oh... BTW... I don't "fan" & even "slip hammering" takes a lot of practice,,, put a bullet over the berm by accident while CAS shooting, gets you a DQ, shoot an innocent by stander in a self defense situation, gets you a free trip to prison, as well as empty bank accounts later in civil court... I shoot each revolver 2 handed trying to get a smooth rhythm between the eye ( getting on target ) the trigger finger, & the hammer thumb of the other hand... same way I'd shoot in a self defense situation...
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Old March 15, 2013, 10:54 AM   #68
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Few will achieve the speed and skill of Bob Munden (RIP), but few would have faired well against him in a convenient store if he had had a loaded single action in his hand, and decided he needed to "fan" a few shots at multiple attackers. He WAS that good, and I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to be robbing the store and come up against someone of that skill level. Is anyone willing to practice with a single action to that degree, just to be able to be that good with one, and then choose it for self defense? Probably not. But one CAN be deadly with one; to the point that WHAT the other guy is using is immaterial.
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Old March 15, 2013, 11:39 AM   #69
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Cowboys!

Fast as greased lightnin' is not how I would characterize the 85 th percentile shooter. If you are a gunfighter, obviously you should know your trade. If you can't get 4-5 hours practice everyday with your sixgun, and you aren't hugely talented in the first place, you're probably not going to beat a super star. I'd advise against laughing at the other guy's mule, just to err on the side of caution. There is the Judge Roy Bean approach to defeating quick draw artists, but the legal implications are enormous, unless you are in fact the judge.
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Old March 15, 2013, 12:09 PM   #70
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2013...

It's 2013, not 1913, so if you feel you can explain or justify your actions to a homicide investigator a prosecutor or a jury of your PEERS(many of whom know little or nothing about shooting or firearms) then be my guest.

I like being outside of prisons & jails, myself, .

And for where I post or what I do, I'd read my posts & decide what you want not gauge a reply by the # of posts or the forum location.

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Old March 15, 2013, 12:30 PM   #71
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It's 2013, not 1913, so if you feel you can explain or justify your actions to a homicide investigator a prosecutor or a jury of your PEERS(many of whom know little or nothing about shooting or firearms) then be my guest.
And your justification for this fear is???


Quote:
And for where I post or what I do, I'd read my posts & decide what you want not gauge a reply by the # of posts or the forum location.
The number of posts in a forum is a clear indication of your level of interest and experience. Folks who are primarily revolver shooters tend to not hang out in the autoloader forum. 85% of my posts are in this forum, 13% in the rifle forum and there is a very good reason for this.

You didn't answer my questions.
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Old March 15, 2013, 12:33 PM   #72
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1. What Evil Roy & Holy Terror are doing isn't fanning...it's slip-shooting (trigger held back, weak-hand thumb cocking & releasing the hammer). This technique is well-known with those who've studied the use of SA sixguns....people like Jim Wilson, John Taffin, Bill Jordan, & Massad Ayoob. It's an excellent way to get hits on target quickly.....as you can see.
Ok so I mentioned fanning, and I took for granted you would post FANNING (because remember, I never mentioned slip shooting, because I didn't know what it was) when you criticized me for saying FANNING is a foolish maneuver in SD. So I didn't know there was another term for what they were doing, but now I know the video did not show fanning, so there was no reason for you to post it. I was not discussing what they were doing, which I admit, they were efficient at. However, remember, they were shooting steel plates, so once again, its not the same as SD. Your video was misleading in relation to what we both said. I criticized people who would try fanning in a SD encounter, and you mentioned even a girl can do it, when she wasn't fanning anyways. Thanks for confusing everyone including myself.

Quote:
If you think what Evil Roy is doing is fanning, then you need to go back to school and no, you probably shouldn't carry a single action for self defense. I don't even know if they are slip-hammering. Either way, that IS the way a single action should be run in a self defense situation.
I was using something called deductive reasoning. If I mention fanning, and he posts a video, and mentions how fanning can be done, even a girl can do it, why would I assume he posted something different, and irrelevant? I of course once again placed too much faith in someone else. That gets me everytime.

I would never carry a SA revolver anyways, because for all the time one practices, they could have gotten proficient with a semi auto or DA revolver instead, which both are more advantageous than a SA revolver in a gun fight.

The real irony here is that fanning was only ever done because technology had not yet caught up to what the gunfighter of the day really wanted, a reliable semi auto pistol, or at least a DA revolver. Perhaps fanning could be slightly faster, but its also less accurate than shooting a DA revolver in double action, or shooting a semi auto pistol. Of course, if you're Bob Munden, Evil Roy, or someone like that, perhaps then, after 100k rounds or more then you might actually be that good at fanning. However, for the rest of us, a SD encounter is not the time to imitate your favorite Spaghetti western.

Quote:
Imagine how fast they could their SA revolver in the standard method.

Quote:
What exactly would that be?
Typo - I meant to say fire* the SA revolver in the standard method. But still, IMO if you have to ask that, then you shouldn't be carrying a SA either. People say there are no stupid questions, well now those people are liars. I was referring to shooting the gun two handed, and cocking the hammer before each shot, with the non-dominant hand. If your non-dominant hand was hurt, you could cock the arm and shoot it with one hand. What the _____ else would a standard shooting method be for a SA revolver?

Quote:
Oh... BTW... I don't "fan" & even "slip hammering" takes a lot of practice,,, put a bullet over the berm by accident while CAS shooting, gets you a DQ, shoot an innocent by stander in a self defense situation, gets you a free trip to prison, as well as empty bank accounts later in civil court... I shoot each revolver 2 handed trying to get a smooth rhythm between the eye ( getting on target ) the trigger finger, & the hammer thumb of the other hand... same way I'd shoot in a self defense situation...
MWM gets todays common sense award. This is exactly the thought behind what I am saying - the consequences are the chief concern here, not whether or not someone can be like Evil Roy. Even an accomplished CAS guy would not fan for obvious reasons in a SD encounter. Why would any rational person consider it is the big question?

Quote:
Few will achieve the speed and skill of Bob Munden (RIP), but few would have faired well against him in a convenient store if he had had a loaded single action in his hand, and decided he needed to "fan" a few shots at multiple attackers. He WAS that good, and I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to be robbing the store and come up against someone of that skill level. Is anyone willing to practice with a single action to that degree, just to be able to be that good with one, and then choose it for self defense? Probably not. But one CAN be deadly with one; to the point that WHAT the other guy is using is immaterial.
This is another good point. For the time it would take for someone to master the SA six gun that way, someone could have mastered say a 1911, CZ 75, or S&W model 10, which offer many advantages to the shooter.
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Old March 15, 2013, 12:51 PM   #73
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Rule #7 Don't dress (read that: pack a weapon) below your skill level.
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Old March 15, 2013, 12:51 PM   #74
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Quote:
2. You showed Hollywood & called it a valid example. I showed real life & you called it unrealistic. Do you also consider the training videos from Gunsite & I.C.E. unrealistic because the targets don't shoot back?

....Let's put aside the fantasy & look at reality....
Shooting at targets is not the same as shooting at a living breathing person who might be attacking you. In a VERY SUPERFICIAL way, I see what you're saying, and I did the whole time. However, doing something against a target DOES NOT mean (for the 100th time) that you could do it even HALF as good in a real life encounter. Its a very naive assumption to say that someone who hits all of the paper and steel and cans will hit all of the targets in a life and death scenario.

See, here is how I am different from other TFL members (among other things) instead of saying I know I would be cold as ice in a SD encounter, instead of saying I know I would hit the attacker, because I can hit a piece of paper, instead of saying my skills are top, I instead think the opposite. I know I could be better, because we all could be better. I could see myself missing in a SD encounter (not that I'm not accurate, but SD IS DIFFERENT) or perhaps forgetting to count rounds - pulling a trigger on an empty gun, dropping my reload where I can't get to it, etc. I am a mortal, and thus, I make the mistakes that mortals make.

Talk is cheap regarding SD, and few people have walked the walk. Anyone can guess what "walking" is actually like, but you will never know, until you do it yourself.
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Old March 15, 2013, 02:10 PM   #75
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Quote:
What the _____ else would a standard shooting method be for a SA revolver?
I have no idea what you meant, that's why I asked. I didn't know that cocking with your weak thumb was such an abstract concept.


Quote:
...because for all the time one practices, they could have gotten proficient with a semi auto or DA revolver instead, which both are more advantageous than a SA revolver in a gun fight......This is another good point. For the time it would take for someone to master the SA six gun that way, someone could have mastered say a 1911, CZ 75, or S&W model 10, which offer many advantages to the shooter.
That would be great, except that I have no desire to do that much shooting with DA's and autos. If I did, I would but I don't. I carry an SA on occasion because I'm good with it. I didn't get good with it because I wanted to carry it. Chicken and egg.


Quote:
...fanning was only ever done because technology had not yet caught up to what the gunfighter of the day really wanted...
Fanning is a Hollywood invention, unless you still think slip hammering is fanning.
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