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Old March 10, 2013, 10:37 AM   #1
F23Blackwidow2
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Sniper or infantry?

Hello Everyone,

I'm here to ask the age old question that just about eveyone who has ever purchased a rifle is asking themselves. Do I want a high rate of fire semi auto, or a percision bolt action rifle. But my question is a bit more specific, and on a budget.

I'm looking at 2 high quality guns for around the same price. The Howa 1500 in .30-06, or a service grade H&R M1 Garand from the CMP, also in .30-06.

I love the Howa for its accuracy and quality, and the M1 Garand for its history and 'Ban Proof-ness'. I live in NY, so bans are a big probelm.

And the ammo isn't even a deciding factor. I know you can get cheap M2 ball ammo for the M1, but since its a semi auto, I think I would go through more of it. I know I do with my .22. With a bolt action, I would probably use more expensive ammo, but use less of it, so the cost would be about the same.

I know that the howa will probably shot about 1.5 MOA out of the box, but I'll be taking a gamble on the M1 Garand.

I will probably buy both of them in the future, but I'm on a serious money crunch.

So, any suggestions, opinions, and spelling errors that I defiently made?

Thanks,
Ken B.
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Old March 10, 2013, 10:57 AM   #2
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Being in NY, isnt the Garand out of the equation for you now?

Personally, if its available, Id go for the Garand first. Everyone should at least own one. Bolt actions area dime a dozen, even accurate ones.
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Old March 10, 2013, 11:14 AM   #3
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I am pretty sure they can own a Garand. Just can't load more than 7 rounds at a time.
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Old March 10, 2013, 11:18 AM   #4
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Garand
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Old March 10, 2013, 11:23 AM   #5
AK103K
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I am pretty sure they can own a Garand. Just can't load more than 7 rounds at a time.
Why cant they just load 7 rounds in anything else then?
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Old March 10, 2013, 11:23 AM   #6
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Well, IMHO a Howa is not really a precision rifle, it is a $400 production rifle. What is the expected use of the rifle? I would get the Garand, you can always have a new barrel installed. The only downside to the Garand is that you cannot use commercial ammo in it.
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Old March 10, 2013, 12:35 PM   #7
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Garands are a good bit of history. The drawback is that you won't get sub moa accuracy right away (if ever) and they are really an iron sight only option without getting prohibitively expensive quickly.

Between the two I'd get the Garand, for the history, since they are still making Howas.

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Old March 10, 2013, 01:45 PM   #8
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I'm a die hard bolt gun fan, but in your instance I'd get the Garande first also. History shows the price of the Garande is going to do nothing but go up. Cheaper bolt action rifles are all over and the price seems to be holding steady.
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Old March 10, 2013, 06:54 PM   #9
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So why can't you use commercial ammo in a garand?
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Old March 10, 2013, 07:09 PM   #10
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You can, but you should probably stay within a load range that comes close to GI ammo if you want to be safe. The M1's can be dangerous if you dont pay attention to what you feed them, and pressure isnt the only issue.

The M1 was designed to run on a 150 +/- grain bullet running around 2900fps. Rumor has it, youll bend the op rod or cause other damage to the gun if you wander into heavier bullets with slower burning powders. Ive shot some in mine over the years without issue, but I never fed them a steady diet of it, so I cant really say one way or the other.

Some say if you use an adjustable gas plug, it doesnt matter. I havent used one, so I cant really comment there either.
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Old March 10, 2013, 09:03 PM   #11
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The only hazard to a Garand if using commercial ammo is bending the op rod. The original system functions properly at a gas pressure of about 2,000 psi. An adjustable gas port dealie takes care of that via a smaller hole for gas flow to operate the rod. They aren't expensive.

Start with the adjustment not allowing cycling and work toward reliable cycling and then quit.
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Old March 10, 2013, 09:05 PM   #12
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Im not sure all primers would be appropriate. Personally, Id be more concerned about that.
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Old March 10, 2013, 10:21 PM   #13
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That would be a no brainer for me:

GARAND
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Old March 11, 2013, 06:06 AM   #14
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Why cant they just load 7 rounds in anything else then?
They can for the 1st year from the time the bill passed. They have one year to sell or destroy any "hi capacity" magazine and until then it is a misdemeanor to load them with more than 7 rounds. I'm not sure what happens after that but my understanding is that the ban is on removeable magaziines that hold more than 7 rounds (removable magazines being an evil military feature). I'm not sure if an enbloc clip from a Garand would be considered a removeable magazine or not.
It would be a good idea for anyone in NY to consult a lawyer to be sure what the law is. I am just saying what my understanding is from the information that is currently available.
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Old March 11, 2013, 06:49 AM   #15
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I'm not sure if an enbloc clip from a Garand would be considered a removeable magazine or not.
I dont see that it can be considered anything else? The M1 cant be loaded without it.
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Old March 11, 2013, 08:02 AM   #16
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The problem with using a more powerful round in the Gerand is not only bending the op rod but I have seen two cracked receivers on the rear where the bolt is slammed into the back. The crack was on each side of the receiver. That could ruin a day of shooting.
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Old March 11, 2013, 08:23 AM   #17
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Article about commercial ammo in a Garand.
http://www.garandgear.com/index.php?...arand&catid=39

No adjustment necessary with this gas plug.
http://www.garandgear.com/m1garand/d...-plug?sef=hcfp
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Old March 11, 2013, 08:32 AM   #18
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Been many years since I've owned a Garand but IIRC you can use any commercial load with a 150 gr bullet as long as the charge is a single base powder. Probably some that use double base powders, but best to stick with single base in order to maintain the proper burn rate and gas port pressure.
I'm pretty sure that all WW2 .30 M2 Ball used single base powders.

Cracked or broken out receiver heels were a problem in early testing. They solved this by annealing the heel in molten lead.
Not sure but I suspect use of M1 Ball with its heavier bullet or other .30-06 ammo loaded with a double base powder caused the breakages and led to use of 150 gr bullet and single base powder only for ammo to be used with the Garand.
Increased erosion of bore (aprox 10%) and gas port by the Double base propellents available at the time were other factors to consider.

Besides possible damage to the receiver heel the rear of the bolt may be peened causing the firing pin to lock up and/or the leg of the pin may be damaged.

Five round and three round enbloc clips have been manufactured for the Garand.
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Old March 11, 2013, 09:16 AM   #19
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Question:

How long do suppose it will be before NY bans "Sniper Rifles" (that would be a scoped bolt action hunting rifle).


I'd buy the Garand.

....but if it were me, I'd buy it somewhere where not a penny of the sales tax went to the State of New York.
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Old March 11, 2013, 09:24 AM   #20
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Another vote for the Garand.

After asking myself this question, with your two choices...it was pretty easy.

"In 20 years, which one do you think you'd still have?"
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Old March 11, 2013, 11:37 AM   #21
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Quote:
I love the Howa for its accuracy and quality, and the M1 Garand for its history and 'Ban Proof-ness'. I live in NY, so bans are a big probelm.
In NY state, rifles holding more than 7 rounds are already banned by your new law if I am not mistaken. A Garand holds 8 rounds. Next!

The Howa, while it is a good entry-level rifle, is no accuracy rifle.
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Old March 11, 2013, 02:38 PM   #22
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Someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Garand is exempt to the 7 round rule because of the year they were manufactured. Either way it's a silly rule.
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Old March 11, 2013, 06:37 PM   #23
F23Blackwidow2
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It seems the Garand is the winner. But let me dispell any doubts that I can own one in NY.

The En-Bloc clip is a 'clip', and considered an internal magazine; therefor, it is not included in the ban, although loading 8 rounds would be a illegal.

It is also considerned an antique, well, most of them are that old. 50 years old I think to be considered one.

I think that, given the unanimous decision, I will be saving for an M1.

And I will NOT pay for the firearm in a way that NY gets any cash.

Long live the 2nd!
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Old March 11, 2013, 07:52 PM   #24
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In NY state, rifles holding more than 7 rounds are already banned by your new law if I am not mistaken. A Garand holds 8 rounds. Next!
First of all this is untrue, magazines pruchased before Jan 2014 that hold more than seven but less than 11 rounds may be kept but may not be loaded with more than 7 rounds. Per the SAFE act hotline the Garand is perfectly fine and is not considered an "assault weapon" (god I hate that term). After Jan 2014 you will still be able to purchase high cap magazines as long as they are C&R (more than 50yrs old) and they must be registered with the NYSP.

Second to the OP: Garands from the CMP must now go through an FFL to NYS. I was pretty upset when I sent out my paperwork and a week later discovered that I now needed to go through an FFL. Make sure you send your FFL info with your order. I would still get the Garand if I were you and do it ASAP before the CMP runs out of them and you end up paying over inflated gun show prices. I don't imagine the CMP has that many left. I had to go with my second choice of rifle since they had sold out all of the Service Grade Sprigfields. Be advised the CMP back log is approximately 60 days per the nice girl at CMP Customer Service

Stu
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Old March 11, 2013, 09:46 PM   #25
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The M1 was designed to run on a 150 +/- grain bullet running around 2900fps.
The GI spec on 150gr ball ammo is 2750fps +/- 40fps. NOT 2900fps!
It also functions pretty well with GI spec 172gr match ammo @ 2640fps +/-...

It is designed to run on IMR single base powders in a fairly narrow pressure curve. Medium burning rate powers are fine. Slow powders can create a much higher gas port pressure. This causes the action to work more violently than intended, and damage can result. Bent op rods are the most common thing to go wrong, but not the only thing.

Commercial sporting ammo is loaded to the 2900+fps range (150gr), and is hotter than the GI spec ammo the Garand is intended for.

And, just FYI, when we say "bent op rod" we meant slightly bent out of spec. It seldom has any effect on the function of the Garand, but it does have an effect on the accuracy of the rifle. And not for the better.....

as to the idiocy that is the current NY law, I cannot and will not comment further...
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