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Old March 12, 2013, 09:25 AM   #26
jrothWA
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Having coached Jr. Rifle and sent my daughters...

through beginning rifle and hunter safety.

The first should be a basic firearms training course, either hunter safety or beginning rifle / pistol course.
Here you will get the safety lessons and principals of sight alignment and trigger control and breathing.

When the person is comfortable with the firearm of choice, then try standardized course of fire; e.g.: bulleyes shooting, bowling pins, silhouette, etc.

The they should consider advance training courses within local area.

Best to "Keep it super simple" for starting.
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Old March 12, 2013, 10:19 AM   #27
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Seeker two,

I have a serious issue with anyone who would say that if someone hasn't been trained then they shouldn't own a firearm.

I do recommend training to others, and have received thousands of dollars worth of training myself.

The REQUIREMENT is being intelligent enough to earn enough money to buy one through legal channels.
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Old March 12, 2013, 10:56 AM   #28
Ruark
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I strongly recommend starting with the NRA Home Firearm Safety course, then the pistol course, then go from there.
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Old March 13, 2013, 02:59 AM   #29
dakota.potts
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Legally none.

Personally, I would have a hard time trusting someone who regularly carries a gun if they can't fire it, have poor muzzle discipline, don't know the mechanics of the safety/action, etc. let alone the legal background.

Just like I wouldn't trust an unpracticed driver to take me somewhere in a stick they didn't know how to work without knowledge of traffic laws.
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Old March 13, 2013, 09:46 AM   #30
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Three principles:
  • Self defense is a basic human right.

  • Humans are tool-users.

  • Everyone has a right to own the tools they believe they need in order to defend their lives.

Those are my foundational principles. Taken together, they mean I am not a fan of any type of legally-required training under any circumstances whatsoever.

Now, with that said, guns actually do require some level of knowledge & skill in order to be used effectively for self defense. On a practical level, if you're not going to learn how to use the tool, it does not do you much good to own one. You end up with a false level of confidence that isn't congruent with reality.

Still your right.

Just a waste of money that leads to false confidence, like spending $500 for a fancy rabbit's foot.

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Old March 13, 2013, 11:16 AM   #31
Frank Ettin
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As Jeff Cooper used to say:
Quote:
It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully.
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Old March 13, 2013, 12:59 PM   #32
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This is foreign territory to me. I've used a firearm since I was 12 and carried a firearm almost continuously for most of my adult life. For me, it's no different than putting on clothes or brushing my teeth.
I have 2 DIL who weren't raised in a gun packing/hunting environment. They're not anti-gun or afraid of firearms-they just don't have the experience to be comfortable,YET. I've also met several nonshooters and gave them the opportunity to change their misinformed status.
In the current round of maniacal buying, I've got to say there are many people who now own firearms w/o the knowledge required to safely handle those tools. On the other hand, there are folks who own cars w/o knowing how to drive but they ARE required to display knowledge and skill before being allowed to legally drive on public roads.
I can only hope that those inexperienced gun owners make some effort to learn how to safely manage their new equipment before we see a rise in accidents. Such accidents would/will no doubt be used as leverage against us later.
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Old March 13, 2013, 01:11 PM   #33
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Own VS Use

Being compentant has noting to do with your right to own a firearm. I know people who own firearms that have zero traiing. They are family airlooms and as such never see a simgle round of ammo.

I lso know people who own firearms and have no formal SD training of any sort. I call them hunters. They all had to take and pass hunters safety to hunt legally and I am ok with that as well.

What worries me to a degree are those folkls who decide to get a firearm to defend life and limb and never seek professional training. Much of my professionl training came from friends and family in law enforcment and military. That as vaueale a evntuly led to me seeking out other profesonal course. The other mediums that you reccomend are all valuable as well. Books, forums, videos, magizines, and the like all have their place. In the end there is no substitute for the real thing (training that is god forid we ever have to do the real real thing!)

Many states require traininig prior to allowing someone to carry their firearm. But requireing them to pass training prior to ownership is a different story entirely.

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Old March 14, 2013, 09:23 AM   #34
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Related: I've worked with a lot of people who "grew up around guns" and did not know a thing about self-defense. Or about safely handling guns, for that matter.

Here's an article from Tom Givens on that subject. He worded things more harshly than I would have, but I do agree with the premise -- which is that a lot of people simply do not know what they don't know, and thus are not as safe (or as prepared to protect themselves) as they think they are.

"Heck, I Grew Up Around Guns" by Tom Givens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Givens

Not long ago, I was enjoying a steak dinner with several other full-time firearms instructors. We had two from Rangemaster, two from Gunsite, two from the American Institute of Marksmanship, and a couple of law enforcement firearms instructors from local agencies. During dinner, the topic came up, “What phrase really darkens your day when you hear it?” The unanimous answer was, “Heck, I grew up around guns.” (H,IGUAG)

This simple, six word sentence is guaranteed to cause dread among firearms trainers, and is usually the signal that a long, stressful, and frustrating day lies ahead.

Read the whole thing.


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Old March 14, 2013, 10:02 AM   #35
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To go along with the general trend here, I would like to state that all training isn't created equal. Military training included.

Some of the more egregious exampls of poor firearms handling I've seen came from the boys and girls in out S-1 and S-2 shops who got all the training they "needed" at Ft. Jackson.

Issues of trigger discipline, muzzle discipline, weapon security etc. abounded with those guys and girls, who were supposedly trained.

I'm very pro-training, but anti-government mandated training.

I think the best firearms training, safe gun handling wise, I ever got was when I took the rifle merit badge as a Boy Scout. And that curriculum was written in part by the NRA.
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Old March 14, 2013, 10:10 AM   #36
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Response to the Tom Givens cite (I know he hasn't directly posted here).

First: I believe in training; it's the responsible thing to do if you own/use anything with any complexity in design, function, or use. I believe in responsibility. There are a lot of great ideas in this thread.

But:

Gee, Tom…

Too bad there's not something like "lane-side manner".

Way to alienate a whole bunch of people who might otherwise happily take a training class.

Labeling everyone who grew up around guns and has the temerity to mention it in your presence "…ignorant and stupid…" can be seen as…well, ignorant.

IGUAG and I have also received some training over the years. I'm sure I'm not as well trained as I would like to be; I'm not as well-trained as some would like me to be; I'm sure that I'm not trained well enough to even own a gun by some people's standards.

Tough.

I am what I am. I will continue to seek training when I can do so. I will not willingly train with anyone who comes across as an elitist know-it-all with contempt for my level of ignorance (maybe, "inexperience" would be a more marketable term).

I don't know you, Tom, and you may be a really nice guy who really knows your stuff. However, based on your epistle cited in this thread, I would likely seek my training from someone who is less openly contemptuous of my inexperience.

Have a great day,

Best,

Will
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Old March 14, 2013, 10:27 AM   #37
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Will,

I do agree it was worded more hashly than I would have preferred. Posted it because of the message that a lot of people think they're safer than they really are -- not because I agree with the harshness there.

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Old March 14, 2013, 10:40 AM   #38
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Yes, it's a bit harsh, but it makes an important point very concisely -- and he's speaking in general, not to any one individual. I'd bet money that when Mr. Givens is actually "counseling" these guys, he doesn't start out by telling them they're ignorant and stupid...
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Old March 14, 2013, 11:57 AM   #39
Frank Ettin
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And the bottom line is that safe gun handling, the fundamentals of marksmanship, the array of skills to effectively use a firearm defensively in an unpredictable, dynamic, violent event, and the knowledge to appropriately make a decision to resort to lethal force are neither instinctive nor intuitive. Such skills and knowledge need to be learned.

Someone having "grown up around guns" is no guarantee that he (or she) has learned all, or even some, of it.
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Old March 14, 2013, 12:08 PM   #40
psyfly
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Quote:
Someone having "grown up around guns" is no guarantee that he (or she) has learned all, or even some, of it.
True enough and something we should all keep in mind when around those who are using complex and potentially dangerous equipment with (unknown to us) levels of skill.

My only point was that my feelings were bruised by the implication that someone having "grown up around guns" is a guarantee of ignorance and stupidity.

I think, like "enough money", there's no such thing as "enough training". No one is so skilled that nothing more can be gained or trained.

It's just counterproductive for any of us to denigrate those we think have need of more.

Best,

Will
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Old March 14, 2013, 04:34 PM   #41
markj
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Quote:
if someone hasn't been trained then they shouldn't own a firearm
On the other hand, we went across America on a route followed the Oregon trail, many folks sold everything gthey had, got a wagon and went west. They heard about indians so they bought guns. Well walking across the land is boring so tghey would take out their firearms and play a bit with them. Out side a stopping place in Wyo is a grave yard full of them folks, see they accidently shot each other, or themselves and died.

Sooooo maybe a short class on how to unload and load the thing and stay safe would be a good thing? Or if the person bought the gun read the manual....
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Old March 15, 2013, 11:50 AM   #42
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My opinion is that practice is better than no practice, even if your habits are less than perfect and your accuracy suffers because of it.

Not only does training make you a better shooter, it also makes the use of a gun more instinctive and natural. I have found at any range, folks are ready and willing to help if asked.

The nightmare of having to defend yourself and your family is bad enough, but if an unintended person is wounded or killed, obviously your plan or lack of plan was flawed or poorly executed. Accidents happen, some are more serious than others, but most can be reduced if practice is frequent.

But a defensive and survivor mindset is more important to arrive at before a weapon is chosen.

For the gals out there, don't forget www.corneredcat.com.
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Old March 16, 2013, 01:20 PM   #43
peacefulgary
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Quote:
Three principles:
Self defense is a basic human right.

Humans are tool-users.

Everyone has a right to own the tools they believe they need in order to defend their lives.

Those are my foundational principles. Taken together, they mean I am not a fan of any type of legally-required training under any circumstances whatsoever.
I agree 100%.
There should be absolutely no requirement for any training whatsoever in order to own a firearm.

And training itself cannot replace intelligence...
A trained idiot with a gun is going to be more dangerous than an untrained smart person with a gun.
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Old March 16, 2013, 02:00 PM   #44
pax
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Quote:
A trained idiot with a gun is going to be more dangerous than an untrained smart person with a gun.
My point is that smart people do what it takes to get training.

Also, this.

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Old March 16, 2013, 02:35 PM   #45
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You don't have to have a driver's license to OWN a motor vehicle, you must HAVE one to OPERATE a motor vehicle on PUBLIC roads.
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Old March 16, 2013, 03:44 PM   #46
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I enjoy training, in general, and think it is a very good idea. I recommend training with good instructors when time and finances permit.

I do NOT support mandatory training, at all.

As has been noted by others in this thread, and by me in several other threads, mandatory training requirements can pose the following challenges:

1) A state or municipality that does not support RKBA can deliberately create onerous training requirements, to keep most people from even trying;

2) Even if a state or municipality operates in good faith -
a) Some people can't afford to pay for the class(es);
b) Some people won't be able to attend classes, depending upon availability, due to work or child-raising constraints;
c) Some people won't be able to get to the locations where classes are held, due to lack of transportation.

So, even in a pro-RKBA state, unless classes are offered on a plentiful basis, and on weekdays and weekends; and unless the government is willing to subsidize training costs; and unless the government is willing to provide child-care; and unless the government is willing to provide transportation - then mandatory training disproportionately impacts the poor, and single parents.
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Old March 16, 2013, 03:53 PM   #47
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Quote:
You don't have to have a driver's license to OWN a motor vehicle, you must HAVE one to OPERATE a motor vehicle on PUBLIC roads.
A fast/dirty read of this thread leads me to think mostly what's being discussed is "firearm handling" and "firearms safety." Indeed these are crucial aspects of owning a firearm.

But currently, an equally crucial part of owning a firearm is understanding gun laws that apply to you. The laws regarding firearms have moved a long way from the concept of "shall not be infringed."
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Old March 16, 2013, 05:03 PM   #48
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-Xero-, welcome to TFL.

You're quite right that anyone who owns/carries a gun needs to understand the laws in his/her jurisdiction.

This actually isn't the forum where most discussion of legal questions takes place. If you're interested in such, you should check out the Law & Civil Rights forum. We have many members who are quite knowledgeable about firearms law, and it's a subject that's of interest to all of us.
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Old March 16, 2013, 05:38 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary
...And training itself cannot replace intelligence...
Nor can intelligence replace training. The handling and use of firearms, including the decision process in connection with the defensive use of firearms, involve application of principles and concepts to real world circumstances as well as the proper performance of physical acts. Such things are matters of skill.

Intelligence is not skill. Intelligence might help motivate one to take the proper actions to acquire skill, and intelligence paired with skill is a powerful combination. But just knowing how to do something does not mean that one can actually do it -- especially reflexively and on demand.

Consider the four step process by which we acquire a physical skill:
  1. Unconscious Incompetence: We can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;

  2. Conscious Incompetence: We can't physically do something, at least consistently, even though we know in our mind how to do it;

  3. Conscious Competence: We know how to do something and can do it properly consistently, but only if we think about what we're doing and concentrate on doing it properly; and

  4. Unconscious Competence: At this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively, on demand and without having to think about it.
Intelligence can get someone to step two, conscious incompetence. But training and practice are necessary to go through step three and reach step four -- the point at which someone can perform the task correctly and consistently on demand without conscious thought.
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; March 16, 2013 at 11:43 PM. Reason: correct typo
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Old March 16, 2013, 10:58 PM   #50
Koda94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
So, even in a pro-RKBA state, unless classes are offered on a plentiful basis, and on weekdays and weekends; and unless the government is willing to subsidize training costs; and unless the government is willing to provide child-care; and unless the government is willing to provide transportation - then mandatory training disproportionately impacts the poor, and single parents.
I'm not exactly poor but not rich either and right now cant really afford higher professional training at the moment. I just wish there were established resources for good free training. So while I wish I read books, surf you-tube, and lurk articles on TFL...

Sorry for the thread drift, i wont go in that direction but its related to the OP in regards for the good reasons there should not be a training requirement to own a firearm but it would be ideal if there was a worthy free program or resource available to all. Wishful thinking perhaps but I bet that many poor folks who own that one gun they managed to get would take advantage of if they had the option, at the very least they would be more aware of the study.


...and +1 for Frank Ettins last post.
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