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Old March 8, 2013, 12:50 AM   #26
mrbatchelor
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....

I've never been in a gunfight. Hope I never am. But I have been in exactly one real shipboard emergency in the the service when I was a young Buck. An electrical fire in a machinery room.

You know what we did? We did everything exactly like we did in the umpteen hundred drills we had done for months before. Nobody "thought" about anything. It just happened, and everything worked out in just a few minutes. Could have been worse, but it wasn't. Stupid, repetative, boring training worked. I have first hand proof.

Do I train enough? No. And I have all the excuses. But I know that training works.

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Old March 8, 2013, 01:57 AM   #27
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....

Thanks for the responses! Sorry to those who took offense and I see that there are a few. I now realize why it looks so dumb to me after reading someone's response...... its not that he looks behind him it's that move that he pulls the gun close to him and turtles his head so deep into his shoulders that throws me off.

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Old March 8, 2013, 08:34 AM   #28
breakingcontact
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....

Not sure about the turtling but bringing the gun in makes sense. If you're not on a target and not looking where your gun is pointing, best to keep it in tight where you can control it better. By control I mean physical possession not control under fire.
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Old March 8, 2013, 07:46 PM   #29
Arizona Fusilier
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I was taught something extremely similar; except the 180 degree thing.

Makes sense, will probably adopt it.
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Old March 9, 2013, 01:15 AM   #30
Gaerek
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Why do some people look behind them....

It's not really turtling the head, it's keeping the shoulders up. In a proper isosceles stance, your shoulders are up. When you bring the gun in, you want to keep your shoulders up just in case you need to bring your gun back out to a firing position. It saves one movement of your body

Having said that, a lot of people use extremely exaggerated stances, and that adds to the potential silliness of what they are doing. My favorite exaggerated stance is the hunch back Isosceles stance. Yes, your knees should be bent. Yes, you should be leaning slightly over. But there's no need to bend your knees at an extreme angle, stick your butt out, and lean over at an aggressive angle. The advantage to it is you're a smaller target, but it's way harder to move around like that.
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Old March 9, 2013, 07:38 AM   #31
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Ayoob and Pincus have also discussed at length the postures and involuntary movements one assumes when stressed/frightened. The "turtle" hunched look is the one a person assumes in those circumstances. Drop a trash can on the floor behind your Mom and see what she does first. .

The reasoning is to work from that posture because like it or not that's the one you will be in when the dance starts.
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Old March 10, 2013, 01:44 PM   #32
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I have noticed that a whole lot of people do this as part of the "dance moves" and do not even really notice anything, just going through the moves. Same with the flip flop chamber check thing that is all the rage. People are just going through the motions like its a dance move and are not really looking at anything.
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Old March 10, 2013, 02:17 PM   #33
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It pays to be aware of your surroundings. The more treacherous they are, the more you had better be aware of them.

That said, I have witnessed exactly what Fire Forged just mentioned- stand in one place, swivel head exactly the same each time and look ahead w/o seeing anything. Stationary dance moves.

In a scrap, the only way I'm standing still is to fire a precise shot or two- or after I am behind cover.

God bless the Sanitation Department- they provide both fixed (dumpsters) and moving (trash trucks) armor, essentially free of charge.
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Old March 10, 2013, 08:53 PM   #34
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One of the nice things about the revolver is that there is no need to look behind you. The recoil shield is a perfect rear view mirror!

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Old March 10, 2013, 10:31 PM   #35
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One of the nice things about the revolver is that there is no need to look behind you. The recoil shield is a perfect rear view mirror!

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Old March 11, 2013, 12:56 AM   #36
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...............if that the case it makes no sense when they have no rounds left in their gun. I don't know why they do it but it sure looks dumb..... I don't see everyone do it, just some. take a look at this guy doing if you don't what I'm talking about... skip to about 1:10
LOL, checking your six for danger, under certain circumstances is a wise practice whether your gun (which should be in the process of being reloaded) is empty or not. Or even if you don't have a gun.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Old March 11, 2013, 11:26 AM   #37
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Ever walk down a dark path at night and hear an odd noise? Even though the noise came from the right, you didnt need to be "trained" to look up, down, 360 around for danger. Its an instinctual response which is where the word "jumpy" came from. I think "fear response" can protect me better than trying to make myself perform certain moves that may or may not be needed at the time.

What used to be... bang-bang then move, has now become bang-bang, flip, turn, look, feel, look again, spin...then move. I will stick with the plain ole bang bang then move and always from a low ready. Thats just me.
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Old March 11, 2013, 01:20 PM   #38
Jskd82
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....

I agree with FireForged..... I think its non sense and people are just trying to look tacticool. That turtling posture is just over doing it and yeah you might flinch when you get spooked but you won't stay turtled up the entire time...... you won't know how your body will react until you are put into a stressful situation. If you think training will takeover then why not practice firing at targets behind you instead of just looking back.....
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Old March 11, 2013, 02:23 PM   #39
45_auto
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If you think training will takeover then why not practice firing at targets behind you instead of just looking back.....
You obviously have very little training if you've never heard of the "El Presidente".

It's a standard training exercise in every basic combat handgun course I've ever seen.

It's a standard part of the IDPA Classifier (Stage 2 String 3).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_...#El_Presidente

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El Presidente

One combat pistol drill is the El Presidente drill, developed by Jeff Cooper in the 1970s and published in the January/February 1979 issue of American Handgunner magazine. This is used as a benchmark to gauge a shooter's skills, as it tests the draw and reload, and requires good transitions and follow-through.

The shooter starts with six rounds in a holstered handgun, and a spare magazine or speedloader with another six rounds

The shooter begins facing directly away from the targets, often with hands clasped in front or over the head.

Upon the starting signal, the shooter turns and draws, fires two shots at each target, reloads, then fires two more shots at each target.

Last edited by 45_auto; March 11, 2013 at 02:33 PM.
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Old March 11, 2013, 03:17 PM   #40
Jskd82
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....

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Originally Posted by 45_auto View Post
You obviously have very little training if you've never heard of the "El Presidente".

It's a standard training exercise in every basic combat handgun course I've ever seen.

It's a standard part of the IDPA Classifier (Stage 2 String 3).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_...#El_Presidente
I have heard of el presidente and that is irrelevant to what is being discussed... in el presidente you are actually firing which is actually helping me make my point. In these other "drills" they are just looking behind them both ways and not doing anything. If anything they are just teaching themselves to be complacent without having a threat behind them. Lets just say I have training and leave it at that.....
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Old March 11, 2013, 03:32 PM   #41
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I can see the thinking behind looking around. But if i did that at the range i would be laughed of the range as they escorted me to the nearest psychiatric unit for a check up.

Think he looks strange check out these idiots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omkfit4NK_A

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Old March 11, 2013, 04:07 PM   #42
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I do like the idea of teaching students to look around through the course of shooting to make them habitual in checking there surroundings. Some are WAY to anal about it though. I see some doing the same move every time they shoot. I read about a police officer who was shot in a shootout with his revolver. After shooting his first six rounds he emptied the cases into his hand and looked at the ground to find the brass bucket. He finally realized there wasn't one and dropped them on the ground. He then stuck his hand in his pocket to find his reloads instead of on his belt since he normally kept them in his pocket when practicing. In another instance an officer reported all his fired cases were in his pocket. He normally put them there when shooting so he didn't have to pick them up so in a shoot out he took the time, habitually, to put them in his picket rather than let then fall on the ground. I guess I'm trying to say its good to try to teach students to avoid tunnel vision and to be aware but I wouldn't teach them a repetitive movement that will continue at an inopportune time. I wouldn't want a student shooting then stopping to look around habitually while the threat is still right in front of them. If you teach it, and they practice it, no matter how counter intuitive, they just might do it.
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Old March 11, 2013, 04:35 PM   #43
manta49
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If you teach it, and they practice it, no matter how counter intuitive, they just might do it.
I think it depends on the situation. If you have your back to a wall then looking behind you are just taking your eye of what you should be concerting on. Is it not common sense to check around you depending on the situation. And not every time you shoot the firearm.

Last edited by manta49; March 11, 2013 at 05:57 PM.
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Old March 11, 2013, 05:45 PM   #44
Gaerek
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I agree with FireForged..... I think its non sense and people are just trying to look tacticool. That turtling posture is just over doing it and yeah you might flinch when you get spooked but you won't stay turtled up the entire time...... you won't know how your body will react until you are put into a stressful situation. If you think training will takeover then why not practice firing at targets behind you instead of just looking back.....
Sooo, what's your suggestion? Since people will act how they train, how do you train them to be aware and drop the target fixation?

I don't know about anyone else, but when I look before holstering, I'm actually looking. It's not just a movement. It's knowing that if that critical moment comes, my head will actually be in the direction of any other possible threat.

This is a new trend I'm seeing online. Basically, any newish type of training that a lot of people do immediately being called "Tacticool" without really considering what's going on. Some of it, I would agree with you. The Magpul "flip" for example. But looking around and behind you isn't just some "tacticool" movement, it serves a very important purpose. If you haven't trained for it, and the critical moment comes, it's VERY likely, you won't look for any other threats, and that puts you in danger.
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Old March 11, 2013, 06:08 PM   #45
manta49
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I don't know about anyone else, but when I look before holstering, I'm actually looking. It's not just a movement. It's knowing that if that critical moment comes, my head will actually be in the direction of any other possible threat.
I think it would make more sense to keep looking at the target you are shooting at until you are sure the target is no longer a threat. You will feel a bit of a prat if the target you have just put down shoots you when you are busy looking around you. That's of course you survive.

PS Who are these people setting themselves up as experts on what way you should react in a fire fight. I take it they are all experts who have being in numerous fire fights and have years of experience on how to react in dangerous situations. Or maybe they have read a few books ans decided they are experts.
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Old March 11, 2013, 06:09 PM   #46
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Hahaha that video is just how I picture a bunch of "Tacticool" people grouped together! thanks for the laugh!!! I would say that if you want to "act" it out, then you better "play" it out....go to a real training facility. You should be practicing at shooting a real life person... with simunitions of course. You'd be amazed at how different your body reacts at shooting at paper targets and then shooting at live ones. I'd put money down that most will be hitting nothing but their targets legs if anything at all. Funny how a little stress throws everything off and that's not even with real bullets!
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Old March 11, 2013, 06:24 PM   #47
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I think it would make more sense to keep looking at the target you are shooting at until you are sure the target is no longer a threat. You will feel a bit of a prat if the target you have just put down shoots you when you are busy looking around you. That's of course you survive.
That's what the training is for. If the threat is still moving, I wouldn't be looking for another threat.

I agree that a lot of people train for it to be part of the "dance moves." For me, it's to get into the mindset that just because one threat is gone, doesn't mean there aren't other threats to worry about.

No training is perfect. No training can get you prepared for every situation. There are an infinite number of what ifs that can show why the 360 check doesn't always work. But for me it's a mindset. It's the mindset that just because the immediate threat is down, it doesn't mean there aren't other threats to consider.
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Old March 11, 2013, 07:15 PM   #48
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Jskd82, unless you have access to a 360 range, how do you propose to have shooters engage targets to their rear, unless in the context of something akin to El Presidente?

You suggest it like it's the simplest thing, but most ranges are simply not set up to accommodate that kind of a drill.

The indoor range used by my IDPA club has three bays, with steel reinforced walls. We are still not able to do a 360 shoot-house, but we are able to set up simulated corridors and side doors, and engage targets to either side. Even so, for safety of the Safety Officer / Observer and the other shooters behind us, we can only turn about 80 degrees to either side of straight down-range.

Your derision, and your suggestions which imply that training to engage targets to the rear should be so easy as to be commonplace, make me doubt you've had much training or range experience.

(Note that the only 360 training I've had access to was at Fort Jackson, using M-16's with Blank Firing Adapters. It's hard to find 360 live ammo training.)
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Old March 11, 2013, 07:44 PM   #49
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manta49, if you have to ask who Massad Ayoob and Rob Pincus are (both are cops, very well known instructors, grandmaster competitive shooters - Mas is a grandmaster in ALL IDPA categories, and gun writers - I have been reading articles and books by Mas for 28 years) then your ability to give advice on this topic is definitely questionable.
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Old March 11, 2013, 07:48 PM   #50
Jskd82
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....

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Originally Posted by MLeake View Post
Jskd82, unless you have access to a 360 range, how do you propose to have shooters engage targets to their rear, unless in the context of something akin to El Presidente?

You suggest it like it's the simplest thing, but most ranges are simply not set up to accommodate that kind of a drill.

The indoor range used by my IDPA club has three bays, with steel reinforced walls. We are still not able to do a 360 shoot-house, but we are able to set up simulated corridors and side doors, and engage targets to either side. Even so, for safety of the Safety Officer / Observer and the other shooters behind us, we can only turn about 80 degrees to either side of straight down-range.

Your derision, and your suggestions which imply that training to engage targets to the rear should be so easy as to be commonplace, make me doubt you've had much training or range experience.

(Note that the only 360 training I've had access to was at Fort Jackson, using M-16's with Blank Firing Adapters. It's hard to find 360 live ammo training.)
Do as you please sir.... I just hope "tacticool looking" people never find the day they need to rely on their "training" skills to save their life.

Like I said above there are training facilities that would be much more effective at learning. IDPA competitions isn't one of them.... that just my opinion though.
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