The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 6, 2013, 06:18 PM   #1
Canardman
Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2013
Posts: 54
I just finished with my first time reloading S&W 460. I went by the book on the mid range charge. Recoil was not bad at all but still had a nice shock wave. ( those of you that have fired the S&W 460 know the shock wave I speak of) anyhow, this picture is of the cases after I shot them. There was also a sand like substance in the forcing cone. Just wondering if this is normal.
My load is Hornady once fired cases, Sierra 300gr JSP .45 cal .4515 dia, 29gr of H110.


And the sand like substance
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (240.3 KB, 151 views)
File Type: jpg image.jpg (256.4 KB, 122 views)

Last edited by Unclenick; March 6, 2013 at 06:25 PM.
Canardman is offline  
Old March 6, 2013, 06:24 PM   #2
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,187
Both signs of very low pressure. QuickLOAD thinks about 18,000 psi. The Hodgdon starting load with your bullet weight and H110 is 38 grains and the maximum is 42.5 grains, so this is no surprise. You are 10 grains below a safe starting load and in danger of the load squibbing out and leaving a bullet stuck in the barrel with that powder. I think you must have read the data for the wrong cartridge or mentally changed the 3 to a 2 in the tens column.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Patron Member

Last edited by Unclenick; March 6, 2013 at 07:21 PM.
Unclenick is offline  
Old March 6, 2013, 08:30 PM   #3
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Location: Deary, Ideeeeeeho
Posts: 512
Yep,

What Unclenick says!

And, when using powders such as the slow buring hand gun powders - H110 in your case - or the slow powders in rifles, such as 4831 etc. etc. it is NEVER recommended to load below the recommended starting loads.

The "squib" load spoken of above, might be very good compaired to what might happen.

The slow powders loaded below the recommended level have been known to blow up fine firearms and hurt people. Don't do it!

What looks like sand is unburned powder and the cases are smoked because the round did not create enough pressure to properly expand and seal the cartridge case to the bore.

Read and follow a good loading manual's instructions as per starting loads and the proper starting loads.

Good Luck and be safe.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot is offline  
Old March 6, 2013, 08:56 PM   #4
Canardman
Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2013
Posts: 54
My manual is giving poor info then. I used the Speer loading manual. For a 300gr UCSP it calls out 29gr min. and 31gr max for H110.
Canardman is offline  
Old March 6, 2013, 10:55 PM   #5
Gdawgs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2009
Location: Hutchinson, MN
Posts: 564
Yep, you need more powder. Those are more like 454 Casull charges. Are you sure you were looking in the right section in the book?

I don't know of anyone who would describe the recoil of proper 460 rounds as "not bad at all". Quite stout to brutal should be more like it.
Gdawgs is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 12:50 AM   #6
Mal H
Staff
 
Join Date: March 20, 1999
Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia
Posts: 14,482
Unclenick nailed it, but I have to chime in and ask about the manual you have. Even without his assessment, and just going on intuition and a bit of knowledge of H110 loads, your data sounds way off. Which Speer manual are you using, and did you double check that you are looking at the .460 load data?
Mal H is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 05:40 AM   #7
Mike / Tx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2000
Posts: 1,244
Quote:
For a 300gr UCSP it calls out 29gr min. and 31gr max for H110.
The Speer UCSP is the UniCore Soft Point and for all practical purposes is a copper plated cast bullet. That is why the charge weight is different than what you see with the Sierra copper jacketed bullet.

Look up the data on Hodgdon's site and you will see a totally different load range for the powder and bullet your using. The Sierra and Hornady XTP, while not made to exact tolerances are much closer than the UniCore is to what you need to go with.
__________________
LAter,
Mike / TX
Mike / Tx is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 07:00 AM   #8
Canardman
Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2013
Posts: 54
Thanks Mike, and everyone. Hodgdon's site bookmarked. And yes, they are giving totally different data.
Canardman is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 07:12 AM   #9
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,778
What the folks above said..... +1

Following up from what UNCLE NICK said from QuickLoad, the OP's recipe was barely a 60% case fill, and barely 70% burn completion.

1. The soot on the cases was from the vey low pressure that didn't expand
the brass against the cylinder walls

2. The yellow sand in the barrel was the natural-colored unburned H110
with the black graphite coating gone

3. The blast/shock wave was all the rest of the unburned powder burning
after it left the muzzle

For mid-range loads in the 40,000psi regime (vice 460's 62k-65k Max), use either Hodgdon Lil'Gun or Vitavhouri N110 for good case fill/good burn/good predictability.

Last edited by mehavey; March 7, 2013 at 07:18 AM.
mehavey is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 09:42 AM   #10
Mal H
Staff
 
Join Date: March 20, 1999
Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia
Posts: 14,482
One other point, Canardman, you didn't indicate which primer you are using. With H110 (W296) it is very important to use a magnum primer.
Mal H is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 09:52 AM   #11
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 1,952
Quote:
The Speer UCSP is the UniCore Soft Point and for all practical purposes is a copper plated cast bullet. That is why the charge weight is different than what you see with the Sierra copper jacketed bullet.
The recipe that Canardman is using is a published load from the Speer Manual. It is a REDUCED RECOIL load using a bullet designed for .45 Colt velocities. Using the same bullet @ legitimate .460 velocities will lead to excessive forcing cone erosion and poor terminal performance. The UniCores are a standard cup and core bullet, not the copper plated bonded bullets like the Deep-Curls and/or Gold Dots.

While I do not feel safe using H110/W296 for reduced loads, it is a published load recipe, so folks need to back off and quit accusing the OP of using bad info. Folks should also be more careful about giving him info when they themselves are mis-informed. For reduced loads in the .460 I prefer IMR4227 as opposed to H110/W296. For legitimate .460 loads the OP must use the appropriate bullet such as the XTP-MAGs(not standard .45 caliber XTPs) or Speer 300 gr Deep Curls that are designed for the pressures and velocities developed in the .460. Use of bullets designed for .45 Colt will lead to jacket separation and excessive forcing cone and top strap flame cutting. Folks telling Canardman to use the same bullet using high pressure loads are giving bad info. This is why I always tell folks to confirm any and all info given on internet forums with something published by the experts. This thread is a good example of why.

While the carbon shown on the OPs cases do indeed show signs of under-pressure, I will tell you that most all of my cases show signs of scorching, nature of the beast, even those with sticky extraction. Sticky extraction in a .460 is a sure sign of over pressure and one needs to back down their load.

Quote:
One other point, Canardman, you didn't indicate which primer you are using. With H110 (W296) it is very important to use a magnum primer.

The .460 uses a Large Rifle Primer and due to it's large case capacity, many manuals do not list the use of magnum primers for the .460 when using H110/W296. Altho I always use magnum primers with it, the manual Canardman used does not list the use of magnum primers with the load. Again, he did follow directions.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 10:13 AM   #12
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 1,952
Quote:
For mid-range loads in the 40,000psi regime (vice 460's 62k-65k Max), use either Hodgdon Lil'Gun or Vitavhouri N110 for good case fill/good burn/good predictability.

Before you use Lil' Gun in any revolver you need to Google "Lil' Gun and excessive forcing cone erosion". Then you decide whether or not you want to use it in your revolvers.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 10:17 AM   #13
Mal H
Staff
 
Join Date: March 20, 1999
Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia
Posts: 14,482
Before you jump on everyone else, buck460XVR, you need to be sure what you're talking about as well. As Mike / Tx pointed out, the "published load recipe" is a recipe for a significantly different bullet than the one Canardman is using. Being a published load recipe doesn't make it the correct recipe to be following.
Mal H is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 11:02 AM   #14
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 1,952
Quote:
Before you jump on everyone else, buck460XVR, you need to be sure what you're talking about as well. As Mike / Tx pointed out, the "published load recipe" is a recipe for a significantly different bullet than the one Canardman is using.
My apologies to Mike....the UniCore now that I think about it is not a cup and core bullet and indeed is similar to the Old GDs and Deep Curls. But it's jacket still is not applicable for legitimate .460 velocities. Speer's reloading data for the UniCore and standard JHPs/JSPs in handguns is basically the same(as per Speer manual #14 page 1000 regarding reduced loads for the .460 using both GDHPs and standard JHPs). I've been reloading for the .460 since it first came out and my recipes for the bonded Speer bullets in it are the exact same as they are for any other applicable jacketed. This is the same for their GDs and Deep Curls in other magnum calibers such as .357 and .44 mag.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 01:27 PM   #15
Canardman
Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2013
Posts: 54
I didn't mean to start a battle here. I have learned quite a bit, and I thank you all. Looks like I need to be more selective in my bullet choice. I'll keep the JSP for the 454 loads. Looking for 300gr XTP mag for the .460's. Seems they may be extinct.
Canardman is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 01:41 PM   #16
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Location: Deary, Ideeeeeeho
Posts: 512
Not a problem here Canardman.

We all can and do learn, but as early on above, the results seen - excessively smoked brass and unburned powder - did come about because of low pressures in your loads.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 01:47 PM   #17
Mal H
Staff
 
Join Date: March 20, 1999
Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia
Posts: 14,482
It's not a battle, Canardman. There were a few differences of opinion, but that is to be expected with as complex an endeavor as reloading ammo. Everyone here had the same goal - to help you create better, and safer rounds. In the end, I think that's exactly what happened. Everyone's input was valuable in reaching that goal.
Mal H is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 05:40 PM   #18
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,187
I've rechecked the Speer Manual, as I hadn't noticed the reduced load notation. I should say it is a very peculiar thing to see H110/296, specifically, recommended for the purpose. The Hodgdon warning about it in reduced loads notwithstanding, the photos in the OP explain why.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Patron Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 08:13 PM   #19
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 1,952
Quote:
I didn't mean to start a battle here. I have learned quite a bit, and I thank you all. Looks like I need to be more selective in my bullet choice. I'll keep the JSP for the 454 loads. Looking for 300gr XTP mag for the .460's. Seems they may be extinct.

As Mal H said it's not a battle.....and we are all trying to help you obtain safe loads for your .460. One reason I may have gotten a bit testy. Over the years I have seen far too many folks giving suggestions for reloading the .460 without any first hand experience. It is not the easiest handgun cartridge to reload. Your use of the JSPs for reduced recoil loads is perfectly fine......also, any bullet intended for .454 velocities is fine for use in the .460. Only those with thinner jackets intended for .45 Colt velocities are to avoided when loading to .460 pressures and velocities........when loading to .45 Colt velocities in the .460 for reduced recoil loads, they are just fine also. If you are looking to reload reduced recoil loads I suggest IMR4227. It too will leave unburned powder when used in a reduced load, but it is normal. I have had good luck with TrailBoss under the 260 and 300 grain Speer bullets when run @ 95% case capacity. Problem with any of the reduced loads is that they print so much differently than standard .460 loads that one needs to readjust the sights. I've got to the point where I don't bother with reduced recoil loads. One does not need to run the .460 to max in order for it to perform well. My best shooting loads are from just above start loads to about midway up. My X-Frame has tight throats, so I start to get sticky extraction long before I get close to max loads. I still chrony good velocities tho and exceptional accuracy. As I said before, if you are getting sticky extraction you need to back down your loads. The XTP-Mag bullets can generally be found from any online dealer. As a matter of fact if one looks they are about the only .45 caliber bullet available at most places. I prefer the 300s for hunting and the 240s for targets. The Speer 300 gr Deep Curls shoot well for me also. My load charges for the XTP-MAGS and Deep Curls are close to the same......the reason I believe there was not a problem with you using the Sierra bullet in your previous load. If anything, jacketed bullets tend to run a little higher pressure than the Deep Curls, and I tend to run them .5 gr less to get the same velocity. My best luck has been Using H110/W296 and IMR4227. While the IMR4227 does not quite give me the velocities that H110/W296 does, but it gives me excellent accuracy and is less temperature sensitive. It also does not require the use of Magnum Primers, altho they can be used with no adverse effects.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old March 7, 2013, 11:11 PM   #20
jim8115
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2011
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 184
you are very close to a squib
jim8115 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11900 seconds with 10 queries