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Old July 8, 2013, 06:57 AM   #101
WESHOOT2
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Mike asked everyone.......

Clark is not suggesting what to do; Clark is reporting what he's learned from what he does.
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Old July 9, 2013, 12:06 AM   #102
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Deaf Smith
Clark,
Do you really think everyone is gonna get 48lb triple recoil spring assembly springs, NY-1 triggers, two magazine springs in parallel (parallel, say what?), etc.. and overload their 9mm so as to make the .357 Sig obsolete?

And would that trick even work in a SIG, or S&W, or H&K, or any other 9mm?

I mean why not just get a Glock 10mm and put a 9x25 Dillon barrel and not all the special effort, effort that apparently makes it difficult for even you to operate the gun.

Deaf
The 357 Sig would need extra springs and tricks to keep up with the 9mm.
The 9mm has less recoil making gas.
The 9x25 is the worst.

What does it all mean?
The recoil is the limit.
357 Sig make more recoil than the 9mm for a given bullet velocity.
In the same weight pistol with recoil controlled equally, the 9mm produces more power than the 357 sig.
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Old July 9, 2013, 08:41 PM   #103
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Clark,

Are you sure it's not the recoil spring and the ability to rack the slide that is the limit? I mean you posted it is very hard to rack the slide of your 9mm.

And what about unsupported cases? You know, that little space at the feed ramp where the cartridge case is exposed. Ever hear of a Kaboom? Or 'super face'? The barrel may not blow up but the brass can only take so much pressure.

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Old July 10, 2013, 01:09 AM   #104
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The former gun writer who coined the phrase "kaboom" has some quotes from me on his web site about case support.
And that is from 10 years ago.
I have been overloading and overloading and overloading guns for 10 years.
I have seen patterns in what happens in each type of gun.
In semi auto handguns, if there is reasonable case support, that is within 0.030" of the thickness of the web of the case, then I have found in 25acp, 32acp, 380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm, 7.62x25mm, 40sw, 10mm, and 45acp, then recoil will be the limit if there is a typical slide mass for that cartridge.

Not all the momentum of the bullet and gas goes into the compressing the recoil spring. I have measured the amount that goes into friction, cocking the hammer, and accelerating the frame and hand mass. But there is still so much recoil possible that we need SAAMI pressures to keep the recoil down. Hot handloads can produce intolerable recoil.

Even shooting a 25acp once with hot loads can make the hand hurt for 10 minutes.
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Old July 10, 2013, 04:12 AM   #105
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I think that all of the new calibers that have come out over the past few years have been purely market driven, and all of their "advantages" are anecdotal at best because gel tests confirm one thing: all semiautomatic loads from 9mm to 40 to 45 are esssentially the same and differ mostly in terms of recoil and what kind of gun (sizewise) you can stuff them in.

357 SIG is much harder to find than 40, even more so now given the panic. It's yet another answer looking for a question no one asked. Just like 45 GAP it's one of those cartridges that just barely squeaks past not being a wildcat because some agency drank the marketing Kool Aid and got a bunch of discounted guns.
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Old July 10, 2013, 09:40 AM   #106
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There's more than Koolaid being drunk around here. Why would I triple load a cartridge to excessive pressure, when I can load a spec cartridge that is all of that and moreover, safe! This thread makes about as much sense as the .40S&W / 10mm. threads that claim the same level of performance. It just ain't safe brothers, so don't influence the new guys, who might take you seriously and bring wreckage and ruin upon themselves. These are not safe reloading practices! ++++++++P talk is just so much garbage, IMHO!
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Old July 10, 2013, 11:54 AM   #107
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I am with Strafer here. How many revolvers did Elmer Keith blow up?

Clark,

With all due respect, Loading a 9mm to the point of double mag springs and 48LB recoil springs just to out run a factory loaded 357 Sig is a bit silly IMHO.

Quote:
I think that all of the new calibers that have come out over the past few years have been purely market driven, and all of their "advantages" are anecdotal at best because gel tests confirm one thing: all semiautomatic loads from 9mm to 40 to 45 are esssentially the same and differ mostly in terms of recoil and what kind of gun (sizewise) you can stuff them in.

357 SIG is much harder to find than 40, even more so now given the panic. It's yet another answer looking for a question no one asked. Just like 45 GAP it's one of those cartridges that just barely squeaks past not being a wildcat because some agency drank the marketing Kool Aid and got a bunch of discounted guns.

Dude................

Platform aside, there are several State and Federal agencies that use the 357 Sig, no kool-aid needed. The round stands on its own. It was developed to replace 357 Magnum revolvers in cops holsters. It was asked for, the 40 hit the market first. Had the 357 Sig hit the market first I doubt the 40 would be what it is today.
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Old July 10, 2013, 01:59 PM   #108
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.357sig

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
I think that all of the new calibers that have come out over the past few years have been purely market driven, and all of their "advantages" are anecdotal at best because gel tests confirm one thing: all semiautomatic loads from 9mm to 40 to 45 are esssentially the same and differ mostly in terms of recoil and what kind of gun (sizewise) you can stuff them in.

357 SIG is much harder to find than 40, even more so now given the panic. It's yet another answer looking for a question no one asked. Just like 45 GAP it's one of those cartridges that just barely squeaks past not being a wildcat because some agency drank the marketing Kool Aid and got a bunch of discounted guns.
What test and video information you been looking at? You need to quit reading and believing the BS that all the new greenhorn gun owners spew on these gun forums and do some real research on your own brother. If you could break down the forum posts into two categories you would see a heck of a difference in opinion. Compare people that grew up around guns and people that have only started shooting in the past few years. The new comers have created new problems that have never and should have never been a problem. Bullet setback can only be a problem for people sitting around playing with their
Gun all time. Fools don't need guns.
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Old July 10, 2013, 02:03 PM   #109
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Quote:
Nanuk
Clark,
With all due respect, Loading a 9mm to the point of double mag springs and 48LB recoil springs just to out run a factory loaded 357 Sig is a bit silly IMHO.
Not what I wrote.
9mm can make more power than 357 Sig if they have the same springs and same slide mass.
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Old July 10, 2013, 02:57 PM   #110
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Pretty strong statement to say the .357 Sig is worthless? I don't own one or even have owned one, but I think there is merit to the caliber. To each his own, but i wouldn't think twice to pick up pistol in this caliber as a defensive caliber.
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Old July 10, 2013, 04:15 PM   #111
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Quote:
It was developed to replace 357 Magnum revolvers in cops holsters.
357 SIG doesn't replace the 357 magnum, velocities and energies of SIG aren't close to the revolver cartridge. They're pretty much middle of the road close to 40 and 9mm +P.

If you stand a Magnum cartridge next to the SIG the difference becomes even more apparent. And you can reload a revolver round much hotter than semiautomatic SIG because you have to worry about unsupported parts of the chamber.
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Old July 10, 2013, 05:34 PM   #112
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Quote:
It was developed to replace 357 Magnum revolvers in cops holsters.
Well not so much. The 357 Sig rolled out in 1994, about 4 years after the 40S&W. By that time the switch from wheelguns to semis in law enforcement was just about done. There were a few holdouts here and there but it was done.

A lot of this was covered earlier in this thread.

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Old July 10, 2013, 06:28 PM   #113
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Quote:
357 SIG doesn't replace the 357 magnum, velocities and energies of SIG aren't close to the revolver cartridge. They're pretty much middle of the road close to 40 and 9mm +P.
The 357sig was designed to replicate the legendary 125gr 357mag loads, which is does almost exactly, given similar barrel lengths and within SAAMI load specs.

If you see ballistics by the inch, 125gr 357sig (except for the pathetic Corbon DPX) runs between 1367 and 1475fps in a 4" barrel. 357mag runs between 1435 and 1475. Note that the bullet travel distance in a revolver is 4", while the bullet travel distance in a 4" semi is about 2.85".

Velocities in a Contender barrel for the same rounds puts the Mag between 1475 and 1511 while the Sig is between 1426 and 1491.

For all intents and purposes, the performance is identical. Highest Mag energy in the Contender is 633 ft/lbs, highest Sig is 617. Lowest Mag is 604 ft/lbs, lowest Sig is 564.

The two highest are 3.6% different. Lowest two are 8.1% different.
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Old July 10, 2013, 06:49 PM   #114
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"It's yet another answer looking for a question no one asked."

You are parroting the typical internet BS hype. Lack of insight or ability to look beyond what everyone else is using.

There is much value in the rounds you mention.

The cartridges you mention are exactly what some are looking, and asking for. More power in a smaller frame, and magnum power in an automatic pistol.
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Old July 10, 2013, 09:34 PM   #115
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Quote:
9mm can make more power than 357 Sig if they have the same springs and same slide mass.
Clark,

Most .357 Sigs do have a bit more slide mass than the same guns made in 9mm. SIG guns do as well as Glocks.

And if you think you can overload a gun safely, then there is no reason a .357 Sig can't have heavier springs to allow more pressure.

But one wonders why anyone would want a gun with recoil sprigs so heavy they have a hard time racking the slide or putting ammo in the mags.

Deaf
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:20 AM   #116
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Quote:
gel tests confirm one thing: all semiautomatic loads from 9mm to 40 to 45 are esssentially the same and differ mostly in terms of recoil and what kind of gun (sizewise) you can stuff them in.

"gel tests" can confirm many things (rates and sizes of the expansion of various bullet types and configurations; penetration depths of different bullet constructions, etc.) but, of course, said conclusions are dependent on the gelatin medium being representative of the kind of material the bullet is anticipated to go through. Wood, wet newspaper, clothing, metal, glass (ad infinitum), are other media that might well reflect differences between the performances of bullets from "9mm to 45" that aren't necessarily apparent when they are shot through blocks of gel.
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Old July 11, 2013, 02:27 PM   #117
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David Spauling, an ex-cop and writer, as written in several magazines that he has seen, as part of his LEO work, many videos where shootouts are filmed at stores, police car cameras, shopping malls, etc...

He said while there is not alot of difference between 9mm,.40, .45, but he observed there IS a noticeable reaction difference between the rounds on people who are shot.

He wrote the .45 does seem to cause the one shot more reaction than .40 or 9mm. Not alot mind you but some.


Deaf
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Old July 13, 2013, 05:22 PM   #118
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528769

Check out plouffedaddy's post on ammo performance from a 3.1 inch barrel 9mm Shield and compare with any 357 Sig performance. I just don't see the big gain from a 357 Sig, and I own a 357 sig!
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Old July 13, 2013, 05:53 PM   #119
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Uh...

I guess you have not clocked Doubletap, Underwood, or Buffalo bore .357 Sig ammo, have you?

Buffalo Bore 125 gr:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=123

a. Sig. Mod. 229, 4 inch barrel - 1,433 fps (575 ft. lbs.)

Doubletap 125 gr:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=614

3.5" barrel - 1415fps
4.5" barrel - 1525fps

Underwood 125 gr:
http://www.underwoodammo.com/357sig1...ntboxof50.aspx

Muzzle Velocity advertized at 1475 fps (USP Compact (3.58" barrel chrono of 1540fps.)


The 9mm's on the thread got, at best, 1176 for a 125 with a 3.1 inch barrel.

Deaf
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Old July 13, 2013, 06:44 PM   #120
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Def I hear what your saying but I'm referring to expansion and penetration. If the .355 9mm slug expands to .63 and penetrates the required 12 inches from a 3inch barrel then why subject yourself to the noise and recoil of the .355 357 sig that expands to .63 and expands the required 12 inches.
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Old July 13, 2013, 07:39 PM   #121
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I suspect the .357 Sig expands to the .63 call earlier, after impact, than the 9mm and thus does more damage. Yes same penetration but more volume of damage for that amount of penetration.

And I'm not sure the rounds I specified for the .357 Sig give just 12 inches of penetration either.

And adding 10 to 20 percent more velocity and about 25 percent more energy, with the same excellent bullet construction is not a bad thing.

The catch is one has to decide how much clout .vs. control they can balance. Some may not be able to handle a .357 Sig from a such small package as a Shield. My Glock 33 is within my capabilities shooting fast one handed. For some people though it may be to much for them.

Deaf
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Old July 13, 2013, 08:09 PM   #122
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I have a G33 also and people have commented that it's easier to shoot than a G27.
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Old July 14, 2013, 07:07 AM   #123
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I should do some testing and try to answer some of these Questions. I have some Speer and some underwood 9mm in 115gr +p+ and some underwood 357 sig. All with gold dots. I know there are "many" ways to test "Performance" but maybe I could do a simple barrier test and compare the results. I've never set up anything like this, what would you guys reccomend? How about shooting thru 7/16 inch OSB with a Turkey behind it?
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Old July 14, 2013, 08:06 AM   #124
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.357sig

There are a lot of YouTube videos of people using a lot of other media instead of gel for doing ammo testing. Some of the video is very interesting and show more of a difference in a rounds performance when comparing different weight bullets etc. Using pork ribs and pork roast is impressive but expensive.
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Old July 14, 2013, 01:27 PM   #125
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How about just alot of wet phone books. Old ones are easy to find.

Deaf
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