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Old June 13, 2013, 07:41 PM   #76
armsmaster270
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The 357Sig duplicates the performance of the 125gr .357Magnum round which is a proven stopper.
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Old June 13, 2013, 08:32 PM   #77
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I checked the Speer manual, and based on their tests with Gold Dots, the Sig shades the best .40 in muzzle energy by 10%. I'll get the drop-in barrel for my Glock 23 and try it myself...if I can find a barrel, and dies, and bullets, and powder. At least I have primers. And I guess I need to buy a 4" .357 Mag to compare...right?
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Old June 14, 2013, 10:23 AM   #78
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My Glock 32 averaged 1,340 fps with 125 gr. Winchester Ranger T, 1,334 fps with Gold Dot.
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Old June 14, 2013, 10:55 AM   #79
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Good real world data. Speer got another 100 fps, which is what you need to match the classic revolver round. From my point of view, it gives me a reason to start yet another reloading project!
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Old June 19, 2013, 11:44 AM   #80
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As long as .40 s&w guns are just a barrel swap away the 357SIG isn't going anywhere.
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Old July 3, 2013, 06:00 PM   #81
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I have had a couple 357 sig pistols for 10 years and I have reloaded for them.

I have not shot them or carried them in 10 years.

I consider them worthless compared to 40sw or 9mm +P++.
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Old July 3, 2013, 10:31 PM   #82
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Quote:
I consider them worthless compared to 40sw or 9mm +P++.
I don't understand the 'worthless' term here. Several state police departments and federal agencies use the .357 Sig.

+p++? How high a pressure is that?

Anyway, if they are so worthless, can you give them to me?

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Old July 4, 2013, 04:21 AM   #83
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^^ good one Deaf Smith.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:49 PM   #84
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Oh wow ... lulz Clark

Quote:
I have had a couple 357 sig pistols for 10 years and I have reloaded for them.

I have not shot them or carried them in 10 years.

I consider them worthless compared to 40sw or 9mm +P++.
So you've had them for 10 years, reloaded for them for 10 years, have not shot or carried them in 10 years ... but you consider them worthless. Ummmmmm, wellllll, okayyyyyy.

There is so much irony in that post I had to lulz.

Clark considers the 357 worthless compared to 40 S&W or 9mm +P++?

*** is 9mm +P++? I've been instructing for almost two decades now, and have carried, on the job and/or CWP .... for at least the last 35 years. And oh, btw, I carry SIG 357 as do many other professionals, (sic: non-posers), that I know - and for the life of me I have no idea what the heck +P++ is - better yet, I'm fairly sure it does not exist and; if by some cosmic chance it actually does exist, then it must be a jackleg handload only an idiot would exceed SAMMI by enough to qualify it for a +P++ rating.

There are no words for what I am feeling about Clark's post. Only ...

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Old July 4, 2013, 10:24 PM   #85
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.357sig

Anyone ever stop to think AM's or SS might want the power, noise and penetrating power to stop someone who might pose a threat on an airliner or otherwise. This is what its greatest attribute is and why its been invented and adopted. If the BG is using a human shield or hiding behind something I'd want the greatest handgun round .357SIG ever created. Having said that, I retired my 357sig barrel 10 years ago since its too loud, expensive and hard to reload in exchange for the nearly perfect .40 compromise.
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Old July 5, 2013, 01:45 AM   #86
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Yes, I consider the 357 Sig worthless for my purposes.
I can get more power out of hand loaded 9mm than I can from 357Sig.
The real limit in these pistols for advanced handloaders is not pressure, but recoil.
The 357 throws more gas in the forward direction.
I put a 48 pound triple recoil spring assembly I built in a Glock 19 9mm.
It could not handle half the power I could run through a Glock 19 barrel.
Recoil is the real limit.

And why neck down a 40 and then try to get it to expand back up to 40?
How silly is that?

You might make up some contrived circumstances where the 357S is better than either the 9mm handloaded or the 40: Shooting prairie dogs at 100 yards with a 357S converted 71 ounce Desert Eagle.
But how often are you going to do that?
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:36 AM   #87
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Well said.
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Old July 5, 2013, 11:40 AM   #88
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Quote:
And why neck down a 40 and then try to get it to expand back up to 40?
How silly is that?
Well, for those of us who have carried for a living, the necked-down cartridge makes a ton of sense. It is a far more reliable feeder in a semi handgun than any straight-walled cartridge.

And your 9mm bullet makers are constantly trying to do the same thing - get their pills to expand to 40 or 45 dimensions, agreed?

So the better questions are:

Why would you consider the 9mm the better performer when, in fact ...

1 - SIG 357 and 9 mm are both .355

2 - SIG 357 is loaded hotter and still remains within acceptable SAMMI standards.

3 - SIG 357 is a far more reliable feeder and therefore far less prone to stove-piping.

4 - SIG 357 is a far more accurate, flatter shooting tack driving load.

5 - SIG 357 is a far better penetrator, especially against glass and heavy clothing. It's just a better overall, all-purpose pill for the serious shooter who carries for a living.

... and there is no denying any of the above. There are multiple sources available that support my contention.

The two advantages 9mm holds over SIG 357 are higher capacity mags and less recoil. And I typed all of the above as a true advocate of 9mm (which I carried for many years), especially with modern pills. But still, 9mm does not compare favorably to SIG 357.
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Old July 5, 2013, 04:20 PM   #89
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It seems every caliber discussion, pistol or rifle, ends up with someone grossly overloading a round to prove that a more powerful round is actually inferior. Recently I've seen posts with .45 Colt "Ruger only" loads from a SAA clone, 6.5x55 loads way over pressure (I checked Quickload), a guy loading 7x57 "slightly hotter" than .280 Remington, and now a 9 mm that tops the .357 Sig. Everyone is entitled to determine their own level of risk, but I sincerely hope none of these guys are shooting at public ranges. Just because they haven't met with disaster yet doesn't make it safe. I also hope those new reloaders here do not take these posts as evidence that industry specs are hokum. Oh, there's a safety margin built in, but that's for the bad piece of brass or the slightly off-spec lot of powder. I know, it's the lawyers. And the oil companies bought the design of the 100 mpg carburetor. No, it's called engineering. It's why airplanes are safe, modern buildings don't fall down, and why there is an amateur reloading industry. Boring old specifications. Please don't jeopardize our hobby to prove a point.
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:48 PM   #90
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Ruger only 45LC loads are over SAAMI limits.
Ligonierbill, are you jeopardizing our hobby to prove a point?
Of course not. With those revolvers the limit is case wall thickness.
The Ruger Blackhawks weakest spot is the 0.060" thickness between chambers. The Uberti Cattleman SAA clone is 0.045" between the chambers.
If someone saw that the 45 Colt was SAAMI registered at 14,000 psi and the published loads for the Ruger are 32,000 psi, then some might run their SAA at 24,000 psi.


Getting more power out of 7x57mm than max book loads for 280 or 7mmRM is no great trick. The limit is loose primer pockets.

But 9mm is just barely more powerful than 357 sig if they are both loaded to the maximum recoil of the same mas slide pistol.
The limit is recoil.
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Last edited by Clark; July 5, 2013 at 05:59 PM.
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Old July 5, 2013, 06:57 PM   #91
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I see your point Clark, and I feel a little silly. To think I've been shooting 7 Mag all these years when I could have been getting just as much out of a 7x57. It must be a conspiracy between the lawyers, the suppliers, and the gun makers. Just to be sure, I checked Quickload for my favorite 160 grain pellet and Reloder 19. I usually use 22 for the Mag, but I'm not sure you could fit enough in a Mauser case. Sure enough, for a 24" barrel like my 700 carries, I can match the 3,000 fps with the Mauser. Of course, the 7 Mag falls within those silly specifications, while the Mauser huffs up to 73 ksi, 10 ksi over the 7 Mag spec (16.5 ksi over CIP for the Mauser). Will that fracture the bolt lugs or rupture the barrel? Probably not. Might one experience an exhilarating release of hot gases? Maybe. Maybe not. Engineers do test things to failure. I used to break stuff on purpose all the time. But I didn't put my face next to the test piece. Good luck. And folks, please don't try this at home.
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Old July 5, 2013, 08:53 PM   #92
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Not picking on you here Airborne, but you just happened to list a lot of things that you often see stated, so you made it easy to stay focused.

Quote:
It is a far more reliable feeder in a semi handgun than any straight-walled cartridge.
Having shot a goodly amount of .357SIG over the years, as well as .45acp, 9mm, and a few others, I never noticed the 357SIG being any more or less reliable than anything else. If anything, the 357SIG is more prone to bullet set back, if proper powder/loads (IE compressed loads) arent used.

Quote:
2 - SIG 357 is loaded hotter and still remains within acceptable SAMMI standards.
While SAMMI may not have a published listing for +P+ 9mm, companies like Speer, Winchester, etc, seem to do have data for that loading and in fact do load to it.

I emailed Speer a number of years back over a similar "squabble" thread, and according to their engineer that responded, 357SIG and +P+ 9mm are both 40000 psi rounds, and both calibers, using similar type and weight bullets, will deliver similar performance.

I think a lot of the problem here, is emotion instead of actual facts. Its no different than any of the other "debates". Everyone likes "their" choice best, and will often go above and beyond to prove its worth.

Quote:
4 - SIG 357 is a far more accurate, flatter shooting tack driving load.
Compared to what? Ive shot 357SIG, .40, and 9mm from the same guns, and cannot say I ever noticed one was more accurate than another.

Quote:
5 - SIG 357 is a far better penetrator, especially against glass and heavy clothing. It's just a better overall, all-purpose pill for the serious shooter who carries for a living.
Far better? Better over all? All purpose? I have to say "not quite" to all. If anything, as I used to get told all the time, its a "one trick pony", and as much as I argued otherwise then, I see now that the quote is really closer to the truth than not. Most of the other calibers offer more versatility "overall".

Quote:
The two advantages 9mm holds over SIG 357 are higher capacity mags and less recoil. And I typed all of the above as a true advocate of 9mm (which I carried for many years), especially with modern pills. But still, 9mm does not compare favorably to SIG 357.
You could add price of ammo, variety of loads, availability and variety of components, to the 9mm list for a couple more. The 357SIG is somewhat limited in those respects.

Less recoil doesnt apply to the +P+ loadings, and maybe one or two of the +p loadings as well, depending on whos 9mm ammo youre using. I used to shoot both 357SIG and +P+ 9mm from the same Glock 31 (as well as quite a bit of +P+ in a number of 17's), and and unless you saw the ammo go into the gun, and except for the "bark", you couldnt tell which was which was which by felt recoil. They handle and shoot pretty much identically.

One thing I did notice in the negative with the 357SIG was with my Glock 31. It was beating itself to death using run of the mill 357SIG loads. Something none of my 9mm's of the same "type" have ever shown doing. The 31 was peening the underside of the slide heavily, with no indication of stopping. My one 17 has a little over 50000 rounds through it now, with more factory +P+ through it than my 31 had 357SIG, and its barely showing some minor finish wear in the same spot on the slide that was peening on my 31. Now, this was never an issue with my SIG's, but it was a problem with the Glock, which I thought was kind of surprising.


If you like the 357SIG, thats cool, theres really nothing wrong with it, and its no different than anything else when it comes to having "faults", they all have some kind of some sort if you want to nit pick. For me, while I always liked the round, I just came to the realization that those who were saying its really no better than 9mm (or anything else for that matter) were right, and I could get more for my money going that route, especially when the ammo took off in price when Obama first got elected.
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Old July 6, 2013, 06:08 AM   #93
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oh my

"Proofed"; I prefer the 9x19.

The 357 SIG is an excellent cartridge, and offers excellent feed reliability.
It can provide superb accuracy (yet I note it's not being used in accuracy competitions, where it seems the 9x19 currently rules).

Clark is correct.
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Old July 6, 2013, 08:30 AM   #94
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The whole point of the .357 SIG was to duplicate the older .357 magnum 125 grain JHP load's excellent street performance, performance that many missed when the switch to 9mm autoloaders came around as mainstream. Right?

I myself consider both the 9mm and .357 SIG, with today's modern bullet tech, to be both good for what they are. I like my Glock 19 and it's 9mm round just fine, there are many good loads for it now.

The way I look at it the .357 SIG obviously is a more energetic round than the 9mm. And this energy can be used to do more "work" like penetrating a very large person or a car door. But, the 9mm generally can do enough "work" with it's energy level for most self defense situations. I feel fine with a 9, but would never fault someone for carrying a .357 SIG. It to me is just a 9mm that can do more "work" if someone needs it to in certain situations.
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Old July 6, 2013, 06:03 PM   #95
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Quote:
I can get more power out of hand loaded 9mm than I can from 357Sig.
Clark,

How did you handload to get more power out of a 9mm than .357 Sig?

I mean Doubletap ammo does give 125gr JHPs at 1450+.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=614

3.5" barrel - 1415fps
4.5" barrel - 1525fps


Are you saying you handload your 9mm past that?

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Old July 7, 2013, 12:55 PM   #96
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Before Mike McNett started double tap, he asked me how I was getting so much powder to fit in 10mm. It is with double compression.

I use the same trick to get the most out of 9mm.
The hottest published handloads for 9mm are with old load books and 3N37.
The hottest possible handloads for the 9mm are with Power Pistol.

Alliants max load for 9mm 147 gr Power Pistol is 5 gr.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...23&bulletid=27

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I do 9mm 158 gr XTP 11 gr Power Pistol 1.169".

If I put a 48 pound triple recoil spring assembly in a Glock 19, the chamber will come up empty after firing because the slide moves forward too fast to pick up a round.
If I put two magazine springs in parallel, the chamber will be loaded.
But the trigger does not reset.
So I put in a New York trigger.

Now the Glock 19 is set up right for about half the 11 gr load.
And I am the only guy I know strong enough to chamber a round.
And loading the magazine is murder on the thumb.

What does it all mean?
Recoil is the real limit in semi auto pistols, from 25acp on up.
Most people think that pressure it the limit, and they are afraid of pressure.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:28 PM   #97
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Clark,

Do you really think everyone is gonna get 48lb triple recoil spring assembly springs, NY-1 triggers, two magazine springs in parallel (parallel, say what?), etc.. and overload their 9mm so as to make the .357 Sig obsolete?

And would that trick even work in a SIG, or S&W, or H&K, or any other 9mm?

I mean why not just get a Glock 10mm and put a 9x25 Dillon barrel and not all the special effort, effort that apparently makes it difficult for even you to operate the gun.

Deaf
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:43 PM   #98
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Lets face it the 357 Sig is loud, jumps somewhat in your hand, tough on the gun and the ammo is expensive. It is a great round with allot of potential but it's not for everyone.
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Old July 7, 2013, 04:18 PM   #99
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Quote:
the 357 Sig is loud, jumps somewhat in your hand, tough on the gun and the ammo is expensive. It is a great round with allot of potential but it's not for everyone.
And what round is for everyone? .22 lr.?

Look gang, even .38s are loud with no hearing protection. Even a .38 'jumps somewhat' from an ultra light weight J frame. Tough on a gun? Well so is the .40, .357 magnum, .45 ACP, etc.... 9mm is tough on micro sized guns to!

The trick is to pick the most powerful gun/ammo combination that you can control, shoot accurately, and actually carry every day.

That might be a 9mm sub-compact, S&W J .38/.357, 1911 .45, etc... just depends on the individual and what their situation is.

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Old July 7, 2013, 05:54 PM   #100
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Quote:
The trick is to pick the most powerful gun/ammo combination that you can control, shoot accurately, and actually carry every day.
That sums it up nicely.
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