The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 18, 2013, 04:22 AM   #51
kcub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 2,020
It seems like the .40 with a 135 grain bullet would be similar to a .357 Sig with 125 grain bullet.
kcub is offline  
Old April 18, 2013, 06:45 PM   #52
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,265
The .40 135 gr slug does not make 1400 fps in any gun I know.

The 125 gr Sig load goes comfortably past that in a few loadings.

Really both the .40 S&W and .357 Sig are excellent in their own right. One has a bit more weight and bore diameter, the other more speed.

I've got Glock subcompacts in both rounds (and 9mm) and I like all of 'em.

I only wish they made a carbide sizing die for the .357 Sig that was priced a bit below $100 bucks!

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old April 19, 2013, 09:17 AM   #53
Ruger45LC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 439
Underwoods has a 135gr .40 claiming 1500 fps, which is good I guess, but the poor sectional density is going to make for shallow(er) penetration compared to a 125gr .355" (or .357"). Given similar bullet weight, in this case 125gr .355" and a 135gr .400", in terms of sheer velocity the .40 will push a 135gr faster than a 357 Sig will push a 125gr. But again, sectional density advantage goes to the 125gr.

Fast is good to a point, and that point being whether the bullet can handle it or not. If not, there's not much point to pushing faster. From a 6" Glock 24 I've loaded 135gr Nosler to 1,850 fps average using Longshot...but it's useless. Fun, but useless.
__________________
Glocks and Single Actions

Repent America!
Ruger45LC is offline  
Old April 20, 2013, 05:44 PM   #54
ShelbyV8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2005
Location: Killeen, TX
Posts: 373
The 125gr 357sig bullet is not a standard 9mm 125gr bullet they had to do a special design so it did not fragment Texas DPS went from 45acp Sigs to 357sig. The 357 penetrates windshields and car glass better than other calibers they tested. Since DPS is often in areas with no backup the 357sig gives them more range and higher capacity than the 45acp. In some of the larger counties in west Texas it can be 50 miles to a call, with one trooper per county.
ShelbyV8 is offline  
Old April 22, 2013, 06:08 PM   #55
The_Meteorologist
Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2012
Location: Alaska
Posts: 24
I always preface comments on terminal ballistics and calibers by stating that I am not an expert on the subject, but I have done research and have a basic understanding of physics. While some may scoff at the seemingly "small" increase in velocity of the .357 sig over a +P 9mm, 150-200 FPS is not trivial in a comparable 124/125 gr bullet, with a substantial increase in overall energy. In a well constructed JHP, the effects can be pretty substantial in terms of permanent stretch cavity length. It is probably why you see so many federal/state LE agencies using this round as it does come somewhat close to .357 mag specs (which had terrific street credibility). And when maximum performance counts more than cost, there is something to be said about the potential longevity of this round for LE use. So echoing what others have said, as long as LE uses it, it probably won't be going anywhere. That said, the expense in shooting, less capacity, reload difficulty, additional wear on guns, etc. will probably keep this from ever becoming as popular as the big "three" semi-auto loads (9mm,.40, .45).

TNOutdoors9 does some nice, simple, and quick SIM_test ballistic gel testing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK6KbA-HuZ8
__________________
Sig Sauer SP 2022 .40 S&W
Sig Sauer P938
The_Meteorologist is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 02:33 PM   #56
tulsamal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Location: Vinita, OK
Posts: 2,472
One of my oldest friends is an AM.

Their duty round comes in a Speer box, 125 grain Gold Dot. Nickel cases, primer is a darker color than the case.

They are authorized to carry two different guns. SIG 229 was the standard and only one for a long time. But there was a lot of lobbying for a smaller gun, one that could also be more easily carried off duty. So they are also authorized to buy and carry 239's. There was a plan to switch everybody to the 250 but, sadly for SIG, that design failed during their testing. The AM's who were involved in the testing recommended that it not be adopted. I haven't talked to my buddy in a while since he lives hundreds of miles away so I don't know if anything has changed in that area.

He carries a 229. When we were younger and had both recently gotten out of the active military, I used to be able to outshoot him with a pistol. That's very untrue today. The AM's do a lot of training. Lots of shooting, lots of hand to hand. He is one of the best pistol shooters now that I've ever seen. The people I've seen shoot better get paid to be professionals by sponsors at shooting events.

It's true the .357 SIG was picked because that's what the parent agency was using. Lots of people thought they should have gone with something wider and slower but it seems like most of them today are happy with the choice. They are deadly with it.

I own quite a few of them myself. Including an AR that uses Glock mags. A Glock 35 with custom barrel. Two HK P2000's. (Daily carry gun is one of the HK's.) I reload for it. And whoever said it before is right... fired brass is cheap. Even the good stuff. Even cheaper if you have an AM friend. Between buying bulk 9mm bullets and free brass, I can shoot it cheaply.

I'm a huge .357 SIG fan!

Gregg
tulsamal is offline  
Old April 26, 2013, 02:39 AM   #57
silvermane_1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: Burien,WA
Posts: 423
i doubt .357sig/auto is going to go anywhere, lots of folks like power(like me ) and the .357sig/auto has power to boot.
__________________
Ruger:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlin: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE
9mm 4",Springfeild:XD .357sig 4",CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63
silvermane_1 is offline  
Old April 26, 2013, 09:02 PM   #58
Crankgrinder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 758
I really dont see the sig going away soon at all. When there isnt any ammo it seems theres sig. The Texas highwaypatrol still used it last time i talked to one about sig. I wish they made more 10mm or 40 super myself. They seem like very promising rounds themselves.
Crankgrinder is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 07:13 AM   #59
dontcatchmany
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2010
Posts: 131
I haver a FN FNX 40 that I plan to get a 357 sig barrel for at some point.

It might invalidate the warranty, but I will not be the first time
dontcatchmany is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 12:18 PM   #60
tulsamal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Location: Vinita, OK
Posts: 2,472
Quote:
I only wish they made a carbide sizing die for the .357 Sig that was priced a bit below $100 bucks!
I was using a combination of .40 S&W carbide dies and standard .357 SIG dies. It worked but it took multiple passes.

Then I saw a guy selling "like new" Dillon carbide .357 SIG dies for $70 shipped. I jumped on that and they are out in my reloading area. I haven't actually _used_ them yet but I'll get around to it one of these days!

Gregg
tulsamal is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 12:20 PM   #61
tulsamal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Location: Vinita, OK
Posts: 2,472
And it's true, if you are going to push 9mm bullets to .357 SIG velocities, you need to pick your bullets carefully. Modern bonded bullets like Gold Dots can handle it. But you also need a bullet that is designed for the cartridge. I'm talking about the exterior shape. Otherwise you can't get a firm enough crimp.

Gregg
tulsamal is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 11:08 AM   #62
zeke4351
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2013
Posts: 107
.357sig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragline45 View Post
Couldn't pick a worse round for an Air Marshall to carry. Overpenetration should be a concern when firing a gun on a crowded airplane, which makes the .357sig a bad choice. Also, airplanes are relatively confined spaces. Tapping off a high pressure .357sig in a confined space will almost certainly cause severe hearing loss/impairment compared to say a .45acp or a 9mm. Just a bad choice all around.
There is .357 Sig ammo that is made for shooting inside airplanes that will not penetrate the planes skin. Look it up. I happen to have a box of it in my ammo stash.
zeke4351 is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 02:49 PM   #63
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
Quote:
There is .357 Sig ammo that is made for shooting inside airplanes that will not penetrate the planes skin. Look it up. I happen to have a box of it in my ammo stash.
There very well may be. But it's an unnecessary concern. The notion that a handgun round fired through an aircraft's skin could cause explosive decompression has been thoroughly debunked.

I think the penetration issue this cartridge may have been intended to solve was through and through penetration of the adversary into an innocent.
csmsss is offline  
Old May 19, 2013, 07:42 AM   #64
silvermane_1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: Burien,WA
Posts: 423
was it UA or BB that makes the 125gr. .357sig ammo going 1525 fps?
__________________
Ruger:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlin: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE
9mm 4",Springfeild:XD .357sig 4",CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63
silvermane_1 is offline  
Old May 20, 2013, 12:49 PM   #65
zeke4351
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2013
Posts: 107
.357sig

Quote:
Originally Posted by silvermane_1 View Post
was it UA or BB that makes the 125gr. .357sig ammo going 1525 fps?
There is a YouTube video of some Underwood .357 Sig 125 grain and all shots were over 1500 fps. Take a look at the test results in the gel. I am impressed. A 9mm +P+ seems to be equal in the gel testing but I haven't seen any .40 or .45 do as well yet. Not saying they won't I just haven't found the video yet. The 10mm does a great
job but most don't want to carry it. The .357 Sig in its original configuration is a very badass round. The watered down stuff is no better than anything else.
zeke4351 is offline  
Old May 20, 2013, 08:50 PM   #66
sdj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Posts: 462
357 Sig

I was intrigued with the round a few years back and on a whim gave it a whirl. (Truth be told, I bought a G32 with night sights on the advice of someone with a lot more experience with firearms than I.) Two G32s later (critical systems must be redundant, right?!) it's been an EDC for years. Never an FTF nor an FTE. Of course, many will say of their 40s, their 9s, and their 45s. This is what makes it fun, right? :-) That said, if I were to reduce to just two firearms, they'd both be G32s.
sdj is offline  
Old May 22, 2013, 04:47 AM   #67
GunnyBob
Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Posts: 26
The .357 sig was a solution looking for a problem, but remains a viable weapon system even though you can buy .40 S&W rounds that will do the same thing. You can always go light with the .40 and glean the same ballistic response, but cannot go anywhere near as heavy with the sig. And without changing barrels.
GunnyBob is offline  
Old May 22, 2013, 05:06 AM   #68
silvermane_1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: Burien,WA
Posts: 423
Quote:
The .357 sig was a solution looking for a problem, but remains a viable weapon system even though you can buy .40 S&W rounds that will do the same thing. You can always go light with the .40 and glean the same ballistic response, but cannot go anywhere near as heavy with the sig. And without changing barrels.
that's not the story of .357sig, the story of the .357sig is it was design to give 125 gr. 357 mag. performance out of a hi-cap 9mm service sized semi-auto pistol, that's was the "solution" to the "problem" at the time, i tire of hearing about how the .357sig is the "solution" to a "problem" that doesn't exist or the "answer" to a "question" no one asked.
the .357sig exist to do what it was designed to do, nothing more nothing less. and stating that "well a .40 S&W can do it better" or "9mm +P+ can do the same or better" or .38 Super, 10mm auto ect., if that was the case the .357sig wouldn't exist.
__________________
Ruger:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlin: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE
9mm 4",Springfeild:XD .357sig 4",CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63
silvermane_1 is offline  
Old May 24, 2013, 08:58 AM   #69
CurlyQ.Howard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2012
Posts: 280
For what it is worth, I just found this for the low price (on a spontaneous check) for .357 Sig: Speer Lawman 357 SIG 100gr Frangible Clean-FireĀ® RHT Ammo - 50 Rounds 2 hours ago $0.64/rd [$31.99] [in stock] [Ventura Munitions]
Not cheap, but not untouchable either.
CurlyQ.Howard is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 04:47 PM   #70
zeke4351
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2013
Posts: 107
.357sig

The .357 Sig was developed using 125 grains at 1450 fps. That is the only load that is true .357 Sig. and if something different is being used you are just shooting a funny looking shell. The .45 has quit being used in law enforcement because it lacks penetration on everything but up close work on the human body yet some people swear it is the only caliber to carry. Read a story about a LEO in a shoot out with his service .45 and ran out of ammo and had to go to his .357 Sig backup. The .357 Sig went through the truck door and ended the fight. The 45 did not go through the door. The 9mm and the .40 S&W come close to the .357 Sig but they have to be just right as to the weight and speed of the bullet and they have to be +P or +P+ to get near the Sig load. As near as I can tell the 9mm has to be +P+ 124 grain and the .40S&W has to be +P and the bullet weight somewhere between 155 and 165 grains. No standard loaded 9mm or .40 S&W equals the .357 Sig. The 10mm loaded in the hot loads it was developed with will out perform the .357 Sig but the recoil is too much for a lot of people to handle. The best weight for the 10mm seems to be 180 grains at 1200 to 1300 fps. All of this can be verified if you take the time to study like I did. I have watched every kind of caliber test I can find on YouTube. They vary from gel to ribs and meat to windshields and water jugs.
I have also tried to search out and read every real life shooting story I can find. Soft recoil does not equal best gun and caliber very often if at all. You have to study this stuff in depth to get a feel for what works. The .357 Sig does what it was developed to do and then some. The best and most devastating permanent wound channel i have seen is where tnoutdoors9 tested the .357 Sig from Underwood. It chronos over 1500 FPS with 125 grain bonded bullet. This caliber is used to protect the President for a very good reason. I own and carry all calibers from time to time but the .357 Sig is my #1 pick.

Last edited by zeke4351; June 12, 2013 at 05:04 PM.
zeke4351 is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 11:49 PM   #71
6.8
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2013
Posts: 316
Zeke, have you seen any testing done with UA ammo 357 sig 125gr Bonded FMJ Load? Thanks
6.8 is offline  
Old June 13, 2013, 01:51 AM   #72
peacefulgary
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 524
I used to love this little guy....



Just switch barrels and your G27 becomes a G33.
peacefulgary is offline  
Old June 13, 2013, 02:03 AM   #73
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,948
The Secret Service and Air Marshals carry the 357Sig so it is here fir a long time.
check my website for the FBI test results of the Secret Service 357Sig load

https://sites.google.com/a/armsmaste...ww/gunsandammo
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com
http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

Last edited by armsmaster270; June 13, 2013 at 02:09 AM.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Old June 13, 2013, 07:23 AM   #74
zeke4351
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2013
Posts: 107
.357sig

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.8 View Post
Zeke, have you seen any testing done with UA ammo 357 sig 125gr Bonded FMJ Load? Thanks
I haven't looked at any FMJ testing other than .380. It seems the FMJ pokes holes and penetrates 3 or 4 times more than JHP in pretty much all calibers.
zeke4351 is offline  
Old June 13, 2013, 09:21 AM   #75
ligonierbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 777
I get it that Highway Patrol would like the flat shooting and barrier penetration of the .357 Sig, and it does seem to excel there. But Secret Service and Air Marshals I would imagine are concerned with putting down bad guys in a hurry. I haven't seen anything that suggests it is better than a good .40 S&W load in that respect. Could it be that a lighter, faster bullet is less likely to through and through said bad guy?

As a reloader who cannot stop fooling with cartridges and loads, I'm thinking about a .357 barrel for my Glock 23. But I need to at least pretend it has a purpose other than my curiosity.
ligonierbill is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14944 seconds with 8 queries