Question about .38 Special

SC4006 · May 19, 2013, 05:00 PM

I've always wondered this, but have never been able to find a clear answer. Why is .38 special called ".38" if its actually .357 in diameter. Why is it not called ".357 special"?

mikejonestkd · May 19, 2013, 05:39 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

hope this helps

.38Catt · May 19, 2013, 05:45 PM

I believe it was named this because the shell case of the .38 long colt is/was .38" in diameter or close enough that they rounded up. "special" was added to differeniate the latter form the former.

.38Catt

SC4006 · May 19, 2013, 06:03 PM

Thanks for clarifying, I remember I looked a while ago on wiki and it didn't really explain my question, I guess someone added that in.

UncleEd · May 19, 2013, 06:12 PM

OK SC4006,

Now ponder this: What is the .38-40's caliber?

John D · May 19, 2013, 09:54 PM

Well, it's .40 caliber and loads .400 or .401 diameter bullets....the same as 10mm! I know 'cause I have a couple of Ruger Blackhawks in .38-40/10mm convertible. VERY different rounds, though....

Old_Dog · May 19, 2013, 10:03 PM

Why is a .357 Sig called a 357 when it is not? Most time ammo manufacturers will use a well known caliber name for their new bullets so people do not say things like why do we need a .40. I suspect it was due to the existence of the commonplace .38 S&W.

BigDinFL · May 19, 2013, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Why is a .357 Sig called a 357 when it is not?

Because it was designed to supposedly replicate 357 mag qualities in a semi auto cartridge

**James K** · May 19, 2013, 10:27 PM

The .38 Short Colt was the same size as the old .38 rimfire, which in turn was adapted to conversions of the .36 caliber percussion revolvers. The older cartridge was called a ".38" because it was the somewhat rounded up diameter of the old heel-type bullet, and just sounded better than, say, ".3774 or thereabouts".

The number stayed when the cartridges went to inside lubricated bullets of a smaller diameter, about .357. So why, then, call the .357 Magnum a .357 instead of a .38 Magnum? No special reason; it was just part of the hype built up around the S&W .357 Magnum when it was introduced in the 1930's. Other parts of the hype were the word "Magnum" itself, and the "Registered Magnum" to let each buyer (within limits) have his own custom revolver for the (then) very high price. After all, ".38" was old hat; ".357" was new and up to date.

"Magnum", Latin for "large", was originally applied to one size of champagne or wine bottle. The term was first used in firearms by Holland & Holland for their large necked cases, which reminded someone of those big bottles. S&W's cartridge had no neck, but they focused on the cartridge power and, more important, trademarked the word "Magnum" for a revolver cartridge. For many years, that kept anyone but S&W from using the term on guns or in advertising.

Jim

Carmady · May 19, 2013, 10:29 PM

"Because it was designed to supposedly replicate 357 mag qualities in a semi auto cartridge"

aka marketing.

Bob Wright · May 19, 2013, 10:31 PM

James K:

Do you know the next size larger than a magnum?

If my memory serves me correctly it was a Jereboam. So the .357 Maximum should have been a .357 Jereboam?

Bob Wright

**James K** · May 19, 2013, 10:52 PM

Yep, it is a Jereboam. For the others, Google "wine bottle sizes" for capacity and physical sizes. If you were thinking of ordering a couple of cases of the Melchizadek size, I seem to recall that most of the large sizes are not produced any more.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · May 19, 2013, 10:59 PM

"Because it was designed to supposedly replicate 357 mag qualities in a semi auto cartridge"

Actually, the .357 Sig was brought out with the avowed purpose of duplicating the performance and ballistics of a SINGLE .357 Magnum loading...

Remington's 125-gr. semi-jacketed hollow point.

It was, at the time, the most popular .357 police loading and was generally considered to be one of the most effective rounds then in existence.

jmr40 · May 19, 2013, 11:01 PM

There is no standard way of naming cartridges. The inventor can call it most anything they want. A .38 cartridge is roughly .38" outside diameter. The bullet that fits inside is .357". The "Special" is just a way to separate it from all other 38 cal chamberings.

lee n. field · May 19, 2013, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Why is .38 special called ".38" if its actually .357 in diameter. Why is it not called ".357 special"?

Marketing.

**Mike Irwin** · May 19, 2013, 11:16 PM

" The "Special" is just a way to separate it from all other 38 cal chamberings."

That's actually a secondary, and quite interesting, subject, and it appears that at the time it had a VERY specific connotation for the shooting public...

There were three cartridges that had "Special" appended to the name...

The .32 Winchester Special, the .38 S&W Special, and the .44 S&W Special.

All came out in a roughly 10 to 15 year period, and all shared one VERY important trait...

They were chameleon cartridges that were designed to be used with, and were marketed as being suitable for, either smokeless OR black powder.

I've never been able to find any proof that Winchester or any other manufacturer offered the .32 Special with both choices, but Winchester marketed the .32 as the round suitable for the man who wanted the ability to go back and forth between powders.

For the two S&W cartridges, both black powder and smokeless powder loads were offered for sale at the same time, and up until about World War I.

The .44 Special also holds the distinction as being the last round both developed for use with, and sold in, black powder loadings.

P5 Guy · May 20, 2013, 03:47 PM

For the 38 caliber the 38ACP / 38 SUPER.

g.willikers · May 20, 2013, 05:29 PM

Probably for the same reason that 44 Mag and Specials are actually 43s.
Marketing.
See what happened to the .41 Magnum.

salvadore · May 20, 2013, 06:30 PM

I thought it was because the 38 colt was an outside lubricated bullet that was a .375 .380. when the round went inside lube the diameter was .357-8. Didn't everyone know this.

RickB · May 20, 2013, 07:28 PM

Quote:

The "Special" is just a way to separate it from all other 38 cal chamberings

I asked for a box of .38 Super at a sporting goods store, and the clerk put a box of .38 Special on the counter. I made note of the error, and the guy said, "It fits all .38s, that's why it's special."

May 19, 2013, 05:00 PM	#1
SC4006 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2012 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 163	Question about .38 Special I've always wondered this, but have never been able to find a clear answer. Why is .38 special called ".38" if its actually .357 in diameter. Why is it not called ".357 special"? __________________ I don't always get to the range, but when I do, I prefer dosAK's.

May 19, 2013, 05:39 PM	#2
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 2,649	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special hope this helps __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

May 19, 2013, 05:45 PM	#3
.38Catt Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2006 Posts: 193	I believe it was named this because the shell case of the .38 long colt is/was .38" in diameter or close enough that they rounded up. "special" was added to differeniate the latter form the former. .38Catt Last edited by .38Catt; May 19, 2013 at 05:51 PM.

May 19, 2013, 06:03 PM	#4
SC4006 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2012 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 163	Thanks for clarifying, I remember I looked a while ago on wiki and it didn't really explain my question, I guess someone added that in. __________________ I don't always get to the range, but when I do, I prefer dosAK's.

May 19, 2013, 10:03 PM	#7
Old_Dog Member Join Date: May 6, 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 29	Why is a .357 Sig called a 357 when it is not? Most time ammo manufacturers will use a well known caliber name for their new bullets so people do not say things like why do we need a .40. I suspect it was due to the existence of the commonplace .38 S&W. __________________ The worst thing about growing old is that other men no longer see you as dangerous. Gun resources for senior citizens at The Old Gunhand

May 19, 2013, 06:12 PM	#5
UncleEd Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 23	OK SC4006, Now ponder this: What is the .38-40's caliber?

May 19, 2013, 09:54 PM	#6
John D Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2000 Location: California Posts: 239	Well, it's .40 caliber and loads .400 or .401 diameter bullets....the same as 10mm! I know 'cause I have a couple of Ruger Blackhawks in .38-40/10mm convertible. VERY different rounds, though....

May 19, 2013, 10:27 PM	#9
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,418	The .38 Short Colt was the same size as the old .38 rimfire, which in turn was adapted to conversions of the .36 caliber percussion revolvers. The older cartridge was called a ".38" because it was the somewhat rounded up diameter of the old heel-type bullet, and just sounded better than, say, ".3774 or thereabouts". The number stayed when the cartridges went to inside lubricated bullets of a smaller diameter, about .357. So why, then, call the .357 Magnum a .357 instead of a .38 Magnum? No special reason; it was just part of the hype built up around the S&W .357 Magnum when it was introduced in the 1930's. Other parts of the hype were the word "Magnum" itself, and the "Registered Magnum" to let each buyer (within limits) have his own custom revolver for the (then) very high price. After all, ".38" was old hat; ".357" was new and up to date. "Magnum", Latin for "large", was originally applied to one size of champagne or wine bottle. The term was first used in firearms by Holland & Holland for their large necked cases, which reminded someone of those big bottles. S&W's cartridge had no neck, but they focused on the cartridge power and, more important, trademarked the word "Magnum" for a revolver cartridge. For many years, that kept anyone but S&W from using the term on guns or in advertising. Jim __________________ Jim K

May 19, 2013, 10:29 PM	#10
Carmady Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2013 Posts: 124	"Because it was designed to supposedly replicate 357 mag qualities in a semi auto cartridge" aka marketing.

May 19, 2013, 10:31 PM	#11
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 1,247	James K: Do you know the next size larger than a magnum? If my memory serves me correctly it was a Jereboam. So the .357 Maximum should have been a .357 Jereboam? Bob Wright

May 19, 2013, 10:52 PM	#12
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,418	Yep, it is a Jereboam. For the others, Google "wine bottle sizes" for capacity and physical sizes. If you were thinking of ordering a couple of cases of the Melchizadek size, I seem to recall that most of the large sizes are not produced any more. Jim __________________ Jim K

May 19, 2013, 10:59 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,116	"Because it was designed to supposedly replicate 357 mag qualities in a semi auto cartridge" Actually, the .357 Sig was brought out with the avowed purpose of duplicating the performance and ballistics of a SINGLE .357 Magnum loading... Remington's 125-gr. semi-jacketed hollow point. It was, at the time, the most popular .357 police loading and was generally considered to be one of the most effective rounds then in existence. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 19, 2013, 11:01 PM	#14
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 4,485	There is no standard way of naming cartridges. The inventor can call it most anything they want. A .38 cartridge is roughly .38" outside diameter. The bullet that fits inside is .357". The "Special" is just a way to separate it from all other 38 cal chamberings.

May 19, 2013, 11:16 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,116	" The "Special" is just a way to separate it from all other 38 cal chamberings." That's actually a secondary, and quite interesting, subject, and it appears that at the time it had a VERY specific connotation for the shooting public... There were three cartridges that had "Special" appended to the name... The .32 Winchester Special, the .38 S&W Special, and the .44 S&W Special. All came out in a roughly 10 to 15 year period, and all shared one VERY important trait... They were chameleon cartridges that were designed to be used with, and were marketed as being suitable for, either smokeless OR black powder. I've never been able to find any proof that Winchester or any other manufacturer offered the .32 Special with both choices, but Winchester marketed the .32 as the round suitable for the man who wanted the ability to go back and forth between powders. For the two S&W cartridges, both black powder and smokeless powder loads were offered for sale at the same time, and up until about World War I. The .44 Special also holds the distinction as being the last round both developed for use with, and sold in, black powder loadings. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 20, 2013, 03:47 PM	#17
P5 Guy Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 869	A Monkey Wrench For the 38 caliber the 38ACP / 38 SUPER.

May 20, 2013, 05:29 PM	#18
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 2,525	Probably for the same reason that 44 Mag and Specials are actually 43s. Marketing. See what happened to the .41 Magnum. __________________ Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.

May 20, 2013, 06:30 PM	#19
salvadore Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Posts: 1,366	I thought it was because the 38 colt was an outside lubricated bullet that was a .375 .380. when the round went inside lube the diameter was .357-8. Didn't everyone know this.