The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old March 10, 2013, 07:13 AM   #101
Kreyzhorse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2006
Location: NKY
Posts: 11,522
Carry loaded. You can not assume you will have time to chamber a round.

Buy a well made leather holster that was designed specifically for your gun. I would suggest you look for a thumb break holster.

Finally, a dedicated gun belt will hold your gun in the proper position and secure it against your body.
__________________
"He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson
Kreyzhorse is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 07:18 AM   #102
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,312
Quote:
It is literally impossible to shoot yourself with a holstered handgun.

People shoot themselves accidentally when they're playing with guns
True but its also imposable to shoot yourself if you haven't a round in the chamber. The ones i have seen shooting themselves have not being playing with there firearm putting a round in the chamber and removing a round from the chamber or unintentionally pulling the trigger in a stressful situation. Did the police in New York not fit a heaver trigger pull to their Glock pistols to try and prevent the number of negligent discharges they were having. But as i said carry what ever way you want.

Last edited by manta49; March 10, 2013 at 07:24 AM.
manta49 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 08:15 AM   #103
Garycw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2011
Location: Ohio-Kentucky - florida
Posts: 1,171
do you carry chambered?

One of the reasons I carry a DAO. Pistol more than the SA/DA. Is don't even want to worry about taking the safety off. If carrying SigP238 or 1911 its chambered with hammer cocked. You MAY have time to rack the slide... You MAY have time and Remember to take safety off ,BUT you may not. I like chambered, point, shoot simplicity. What has been a fear of mine from day one is having your firearm taken away & used on you.Almost Happened to a coworker in the 70's after being hit from behind with 2x4 in head.


Sent from iPhone
Garycw is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 08:51 AM   #104
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenatureboy
I assumed that since the individual was open carrying surely his gun wouldn't be loaded while he was eating in a restaurant.
I bet you assumed incorrectly.

Do you also assume that all those cops open carrying are doing it with unloaded guns, or that they unload their guns when they're sitting down?
45_auto is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 09:40 AM   #105
USA SHARK
Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Posts: 37
"One of the reasons I carry a DAO. Pistol more than the SA/DA. Is don't even want to worry about taking the safety off. If carrying SigP238 or 1911 its chambered with hammer cocked. You MAY have time to rack the slide... You MAY have time and Remember to take safety off ,BUT you may not. I like chambered, point, shoot simplicity. What has been a fear of mine from day one is having your firearm taken away & used on you.Almost Happened to a coworker in the 70's after being hit from behind with 2x4 in head."

==================================================

I live in Illinois and am looking forward to a good carry law later this year. So I am learning as much as I can now, and trainng, which if there is an underlying theme from just about everyone is that it's all about training.

What I don't understand are comments about pistols with a manual safety because it may take too long to turn off the safety, or because you may not remember to turn the safety off. This makes no sense to me if training is truly taking place. I have a Ruger SR40 with a manual safety, and a trigger safety, and it is so easy and fast to turn the safety off. It is second nature to do it. And if I can't remember to do that, then I haven't trained enough.

The thought of having one chambered, with a manual safety on, and trained well so I can quickly turn the safety off, seems to be a perfect solution. It solves most of the safety concern, and it solves the potential problem of not having the weapon ready to fire.

Maybe I'm missing something....
USA SHARK is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 10:59 AM   #106
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,853
Why do you need the safety on a carry gun if you don't pull the trigger incorrectly?

That is the core of the argument.

If you carried a revolver as many did for years, there would be no safety.

Is it the weight of the trigger pull?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 11:25 AM   #107
AH.74
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: Hermit's Peak
Posts: 623
Quote:
True but its also imposable to shoot yourself if you haven't a round in the chamber. The ones i have seen shooting themselves have not being playing with there firearm putting a round in the chamber and removing a round from the chamber or unintentionally pulling the trigger in a stressful situation. Did the police in New York not fit a heaver trigger pull to their Glock pistols to try and prevent the number of negligent discharges they were having. But as i said carry what ever way you want.
Manta, for some reason you seem to like taking the contrary position and arguing for it. I don't know why that is.

The fact is- these people in the videos you have seen are violating one or more of the safety rules. Period- no argument. Guns are designed and intended to be loaded. They are not designed or intended for extra manipulation to make them ready, when loss of a split second could mean the end of a life.

When you take a police force the size of NYPD, with many officers who have little to no firearms experience prior to joining the force, and then have them carry a gun full-time day in and day out, there is a chance that problems will occur. With training and experience hopefully comes improvement.
AH.74 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 11:29 AM   #108
AH.74
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: Hermit's Peak
Posts: 623
Quote:
What I don't understand are comments about pistols with a manual safety because it may take too long to turn off the safety, or because you may not remember to turn the safety off. This makes no sense to me if training is truly taking place. I have a Ruger SR40 with a manual safety, and a trigger safety, and it is so easy and fast to turn the safety off. It is second nature to do it. And if I can't remember to do that, then I haven't trained enough.
For me it's one variable that can be taken out of the equation entirely.

I don't want to have to train for it. I'm comfortable with my choice of weapons that don't have a manual safety, so why should I bother worrying about one?
AH.74 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 11:55 AM   #109
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49 View Post
True but its also imposable to shoot yourself if you haven't a round in the chamber. The ones i have seen shooting themselves have not being playing with there firearm putting a round in the chamber and removing a round from the chamber or unintentionally pulling the trigger in a stressful situation. Did the police in New York not fit a heaver trigger pull to their Glock pistols to try and prevent the number of negligent discharges they were having. But as i said carry what ever way you want.
So, you've seen people shoot themselves while chambering and unchambering a round but you still think the best practice is to chamber and unchamber a round whenever you need the gun?

My biggest problem with this is the idea that "you can't shoot yourself with an unloaded gun", yet that is exactly what happens in a large number of unintentional shootings. "BOOM!" followed by "But I didn't think it was loaded!?"

All guns are ALWAYS loaded. Even when they're "not", they're loaded. If you treat them like they're loaded, it makes NO difference if they "really are" or not. You won't have your finger on the trigger or inside the trigger guard. You won't point it at anything you're not willing to destroy. You'll keep it pointed in a safe direction.

"Unloaded" carry, IMO, encourages just the opposite. "Don't worry, it's not loaded"

Carry guns are not for show and tell. They're not to take out and admire in the restroom. They remain holstered from morning to night unless dire circumstances call for their use. Carrying them loaded is perfectly safe and carrying them unloaded can put the person in unnecessary added danger should a SD situation ever arise.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 12:01 PM   #110
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
"Carry guns are not for show and tell. They're not to take out and admire in the restroom. They remain holstered from morning to night unless dire circumstances call for their use. Carrying them loaded is perfectly safe and carrying them unloaded can put the person in unnecessary added danger should a SD situation ever arise"


Absolutely.

And those that need to be convinced of this, or who disagree with this, have self-selected themselves into the group that ought to not carry.


Willie

.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 01:44 PM   #111
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,935
I really don't have a problem with someone deciding not to carry with a round in the chamber. There are some people who decide not to carry at all. Not my decision.

I've known people who are better shooters than me who decide not to.

I do think some people have an unrealistic expectation that a self defense situation will be like on TV. John Wayne pulling a gun and firing across the street at the bad guys. Sometimes it is. But quite often your free hand will be pinned or be budy defending you from a knife attack or someone beating you with a piece of pipe.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 01:54 PM   #112
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,312
Quote:
Manta, for some reason you seem to like taking the contrary position and arguing for it. I don't know why that is.
I just have a different opinion at this time i am happy to listen to different views and be open minded and willing to change my view on the subject if i see read or see something that changes my mind.

Quote:
So, you've seen people shoot themselves while cambering and unchambering a round but you still think the best practice is to chamber and unchamber a round whenever you need the gun?
If you carry with a round in the chamber then you could be cambering and unchambering every day. If you choose to chamber the firearm when you need or think you might need it that could be at the most maybe a few times in a year.
No doubt carrying with a round in the chamber could save a few seconds if the firearm is needed. So its up to the individual to look at the options and decide what they want to do. I am not telling anyone what way they should carry their firearm like some are, just giving my opinion.

Last edited by manta49; March 10, 2013 at 02:25 PM.
manta49 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 02:08 PM   #113
Garycw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2011
Location: Ohio-Kentucky - florida
Posts: 1,171
do you carry chambered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger View Post
So, you've seen people shoot themselves while chambering and unchambering a round but you still think the best practice is to chamber and unchamber a round whenever you need the gun?

My biggest problem with this is the idea that "you can't shoot yourself with an unloaded gun", yet that is exactly what happens in a large number of unintentional shootings. "BOOM!" followed by "But I didn't think it was loaded!?"
.
Heard of alot of people being accidentally shot or discharging with the preverbal "unloaded" gun" that's why mine are always kept loaded, and I don't keep it a secret either. It takes the guesswork out of if there loaded. I once asked a dealer at gun show what the Large jar of various cal bullies on his table was. He replied it was from all the "unloaded" guns he had received.


Sent from iPhone

Last edited by Garycw; March 10, 2013 at 03:43 PM.
Garycw is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 02:19 PM   #114
JRH6856
Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2013
Location: DFW area
Posts: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49
If you carry with a round in the chamber then you are cambering and unchambering every day.
Why? I keep my guns loaded and certainly don't load and unload them every day. What would be the reason for doing so?

Regardless of where you store the ammo, if a round is not chambered, the gun is effectively unloaded and must be loaded before it will fire. When it comes to self defense when speed is of the essence, a brick can be more effective than an unloaded gun, because you won't have to waste any time trying to load the brick.
__________________
NRA Life Member
All calibers equalize, some calibers equalize more than others.
JRH6856 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 02:32 PM   #115
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,923
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
...My biggest problem with this is the idea that "you can't shoot yourself with an unloaded gun", yet that is exactly what happens in a large number of unintentional shootings. "BOOM!" followed by "But I didn't think it was loaded!?"

All guns are ALWAYS loaded....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garycw
...Heard of alot of people being accidentally shot or discharging with the preverbal "unloaded" gun"...
Perhaps the fundamental issue is that folks who carry a gun with an empty chamber seem to be saying (to others and I'd suspect to themselves) that by doing so they are making the gun "safe" or being "safer." I submit that is not a particularly helpful attitude.

As mentioned, the first rule of safe gun handling is: All guns are always loaded.


A while ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus (emphasis added):
Quote:
Negligent discharges that result in injury are the result of 1. IGNORANCE, and/or 2. COMPLACENCY and/or 3. HABIT that is inappropriate to changed conditions.

Proper training with the universal rules can only address #1 and #3.

...The great deficiency of much NRA civilian training ... is that muzzle and trigger discipline are not rigorously enforced except when on the range when the line is hot and sometimes not even then. Change the conditions to carrying a loaded gun at all times and adverse results are predictable.

EXAMPLE #1: Trap and skeet shooters often rest muzzles on their toes and point them at each other. They have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot. ...CHANGE CONDITIONS to a duck blind with loaded guns and the results are predictable....

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".
At Gunsite, training is on a hot range. For those who carry a gun in public, everyday life is a "hot range." It's a good idea to get used to that and learn to consistently conduct oneself accordingly.

As I've mentioned before, your being safe with your gun is completely within your control. The circumstances of a violent incident in which you may need to use your gun are not; they will be chosen largely by your assailant.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 02:45 PM   #116
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,312
Quote:
Why? I keep my guns loaded and certainly don't load and unload them every day. What would be the reason for doing so
My mistake i was thinking more of police and military i am not sure about America. But here a soldier or police officer has to unload in a unloading bay every time he comes of duty or patrol. If its so safe to have a round in the chamber why do they require the firearm to be unloaded when in the police station.

Quote:
When it comes to self defense when speed is of the essence, a brick can be more effective than an unloaded gun, because you won't have to waste any time trying to load the brick
If you are going into a situation that someone is going to start shooting at you then you take a brick. I will take a firearm that unloaded that will take a few seconds to chamber a round. PS in that situation i would have a round in the chamber.


My earlier post.
Quote:
No doubt carrying with a round in the chamber could save a few seconds if the firearm is needed. So its up to the individual to look at the options and decide what they want to do. I am not telling anyone what way they should carry their firearm like some are, just giving my opinion
manta49 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 02:48 PM   #117
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,213
Yeah, but if I knew I was going to a gunfight, I'd take a rifle . . . and friends . . . with rifles.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 02:49 PM   #118
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,512
Manta, in the U.S. military, the further removed from actual combat you are, the more skiddish those above you in the chain of command get concerning loaded weapons.

For instance, every time we came back inside our FOB, we had to go through the ritual of clearing our weapons and decharging our magazines.

It was procedure and that procedure was enforced. Remind me to tell you the story about the fat USAF Major who yelled at me for wearing gray socks and a para-cord bracelet one day.

Note: Decharging the mags everyday gave you the chance to inspect and clean them though. So that was good.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Big Sister: "You should be sponsored by Allen"
Me: "If you can't shoot good, at least look good walking to the firing line."
Big Sister: "Can you not afford a Pelican? Then buy an Allen gun bag."
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 03:00 PM   #119
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,312
Quote:
Yeah, but if I knew I was going to a gunfight, I'd take a rifle . . . and friends . . . with rifles.
I will put it another way its the brick or paperweight analogy i find unhelpful. My point if someone wants to carry a brick in preference to a firearm without a round in the chamber that would take a few seconds to bring into action then go for it . I would prefer to take a firearm.
manta49 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 03:36 PM   #120
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Manta49,

I have no idea why they'd make the police or anyone else unload their guns at the end of a shift but I'd be willing to guess that the answer has a lot more to do with politics than safety.

My carry gun is unloaded when I shoot it. Otherwise, there's a round in the chamber, 24/7/365. The same is true for virtually everyone who carries.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 03:39 PM   #121
JRH6856
Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2013
Location: DFW area
Posts: 94
Quote:
I will put it another way its the brick or paperweight analogy i find unhelpful. My point if someone wants to carry a brick in preference to a firearm without a round in the chamber that would take a few seconds to bring into action then go for it . I would prefer to take a firearm.
And my point is that I'm not willingly going into any situation where I need a gun, but if I should find myself in a situation where I do need a gun, I want to have it loaded and ready to fire and not be reaching for something that, until I could load it and make it ready to fire, would have the functional equivalent of a brick that I was trying to load rather than use.
__________________
NRA Life Member
All calibers equalize, some calibers equalize more than others.
JRH6856 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 03:47 PM   #122
Garycw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2011
Location: Ohio-Kentucky - florida
Posts: 1,171
do you carry chambered?

Carrying unchambered may also be that persons lack of confidence in there abilities or there gun to handle it properly.


Sent from iPhone
Garycw is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 04:16 PM   #123
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 4,031
Let's keep it civil. If this descends any further into bickering, it's done.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 04:22 PM   #124
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,512
I carried chambered because if I ever have to pull my Glock, it will because I need it right the hell now, not two seconds from now.

Also, I carry a Glock because I generally don't need a gun in my daily activities.

If I know I'm going to need a gun, I usually take my M-4A1, and atleast a squad worth of guys behind me.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Big Sister: "You should be sponsored by Allen"
Me: "If you can't shoot good, at least look good walking to the firing line."
Big Sister: "Can you not afford a Pelican? Then buy an Allen gun bag."
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old March 10, 2013, 04:25 PM   #125
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,923
I have seen a great many loaded pistols being holstered without ever seeing a negligent discharge. I have done so myself perhaps thousands of times.

Yes, negligent discharges occur. When they do, it's because someone has been negligent -- imagine that. It is, however, within one's control to not be negligent.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14290 seconds with 7 queries