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Old March 3, 2013, 10:57 PM   #1
dakota1820
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do you carry chambered?

Hey guys. I had just taken my kahr 40 to the gun dealer it is defective. The slide wont close all the way when feeding the round.
So I was talking to the store owner about how to properly load the gun. You have to slide the slide back and lock it then stick the magazine in and then relase slide lock. So basically you have to carry loaded all the time and there is no safety.

So it made me curious do you guys carry clambered?
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Old March 3, 2013, 11:26 PM   #2
Mr. Davis
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do you carry chambered?

Yeah, I carry a loaded gun. It's fantasyland to think you'll have time to rack the slide in the rush of the moment. Also, I don't like being down one round.

If you don't feel safe carrying a loaded gun, I suggest remedial safety training or obtaining a high quality holster.
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Old March 3, 2013, 11:35 PM   #3
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^^^ That. If you want to work towards carrying loaded (one in the chamber is what I consider loaded, not just having a loaded mag in the gun), then load your gun with a snap cap and carry for a week or two, each night inspecting your gun to make sure it didn't go off and slaughter a bus full of children, then once you build your confidence in your gun and your ability not to trip and fall and have it bounce out of your holster and shoot you in the face, then take that cautious leap of faith and load that sucker every day.

Don't alternate or you'll get into trouble. Just commit, then do it forever. You'll soon be bored of the concept that modern firearms are dangerous to carry loaded. Took me a week or so to load my glock 26 when i began carrying so i know what you're feeling. Just do it.

SIDE NOTE: a lady in my recent CCW class (i teach) shot her brand new Kahr 40 on our range visit for her qualification shooting/demonstration, and it was a bad pistol for her to have...obviously she was steer'd to it by an overzealous gun dealer who didn't have the gun she wanted. It also had light primer strikes which isn't common for Kahr from what I understand. Anyway, she'll have it repaired then sold for the G23 she wanted.
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Old March 3, 2013, 11:37 PM   #4
Frank Ettin
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I carry a gun whenever I legally can. I always carry with a round in the chamber -- either a 1911 in condition 1 or an H&K P7M8. That's the way I've been trained.

Some thoughts --
  • The safest way to carry a gun is unloaded, disassembled and in a locked case. The best compromise between safe and tactically sound, assuming a modern, properly designed firearm in a good holster, is with a round in the chamber.

  • Safety is primarily a matter of training, practice and experience. Whether or not you have an ND is entirely within your control. If you have an ND it's because you did something wrong. If you want to avoid an ND, don't do anything wrong -- and train and practice enough so you know how to not do anything wrong and have the skills to do things correctly.

  • And while your safety with a gun is within your control, the circumstances in which you might need to use your gun are not. Those circumstances will be determined at least in part by the guy who decides to attack you.

    So there is no way that you can count on having both hands free to rack the slide and make your gun ready. Maybe you will and maybe you won't.

    • And it's always possible you will have only one hand available with which to use your gun. For example, see the New York City Police Department Firearm Discharge Report for 2009.

      On page 8 (page 32 of the pdf, there's a long introduction), it is noted (emphasis added):
      Quote:

      ...Utilizing a two‐handed grip, standing, and lining up a target using the firearm’s sights is the preferred method of discharging a firearm, but it is not always practical during an adversarial conflict. Of officers reporting their shooting techniques, 62 percent gripped the firearm with two hands,...
      Therefore, 38% of the officers reporting their shooting technique used in the adversarial conflict (apparently the NYPD term for "gun fight") fired their gun one-handed.

    • To be sure, this is a small and particular sample. But it is at least strongly suggestive that in defensive uses of a pistol, firing the gun with one-handed is not that uncommon.

  • You might feel safer with a gun in your pocket, but the mere possession of a gun doesn't make you safer. One's incremental increase in safety, if there is any real increase in safety, will come from being able to effectively use his gun in self defense in the unlikely event he needs to in order to prevent immediate death or grave bodily injury. A gun is not a magic amulet that offers protection by its mere presence on one's person.

    A number of things can facilitate one's ability to effectively use a gun in self defense, such as --

    • Knowing and understanding the legal issues -- when the use of lethal force would be legally justified, when it would not be, and how to tell the difference. Understanding how to handle the legal aftermath of a violent encounter.

    • Knowing about levels of alertness and mental preparedness to take action. Understanding how to assess situations and make difficult decisions quickly under stress. Knowing about the various stress induced physiological and psychological effects that one might face during and after a violent encounter.

    • Good practical proficiency with one's gun. That includes practical marksmanship, i. e., being able to deploy one's gun and get good hits quickly at various distances. It also includes skills such as moving and shooting, use of cover and concealment, reloading quickly, clearing malfunctions, and moving safely with a loaded gun.

    • Having a reliable gun one can manage properly accessible and available to be put into use quickly if necessary.

  • In the event of an emergency, you can't know ahead of time how fast you will have to be to prevail. There is no way you can count on having the time to make the gun ready. Maybe you will and maybe you won't.

    It's a question of how long it can take us to perceive the threat, determine the need to fire, deploy our gun and engage the threat with accurate fire, having made the decision that shooting is warranted.

    So how much time will we have in which to do all of that? I have no idea and neither do you. It's going to all depend on what happens and how it happens. We might have lots of time, or we might have very little. We simply can't know in advance.

  • If we can't get done what we need to do in the time circumstances allow us, we will not be happy with the outcome. So if there's something I can do to save time, any time, that's a good thing. And the better trained and prepared you are, the luckier you will be.
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Old March 3, 2013, 11:45 PM   #5
NWPilgrim
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do you carry chambered?

Yes, carry it chambered. While in many situations you will have time to rack the slide it is one more thing that can go wrong right when you have no time for do overs. It takes two hands, it takes time if only a split second, and there is a chance there will be a problem chambering it. Carrying it chambered eliminates three risk factors.

A quality holster is necessary. It must protect the trigger and hold the pistol securely during all manner if physical positions and activities. I had one holster that looked great but in a certain position it lost its grip on the pistol and it fell out in a dark parking lot. Another seemed fine and held the pistol securely but while shoveling snow it flipped out from inside the pants over the top of my belt. Fortunately neither incident happened with others around. And these were $60 and $90 holsters on a 5.11 gun belt.

Having said all that, I would also say if you are not confident with it yet then fine carry condition 3 for a while and get used to having the gun on your belt. At least it is with you and not at home or in the car trunk. After a month or two of daily carry you will be at ease enough to take the next step and carry loaded. At least that is how I did it. However you go about it you should have in mind that with the proper gear, and practice it is perfectly safe to carry with a round chambered and it is the preferred method you want to work toward.
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Old March 3, 2013, 11:46 PM   #6
dakota1820
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I always worry about it going off due to some crazy scenario that the trigger gets hit. Like some crazy accident getting into your car and the holster hung on something or whatever
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Old March 4, 2013, 12:01 AM   #7
Sport45
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Quote:
Like some crazy accident getting into your car and the holster hung on something or whatever.
That's why the holster covers the trigger.

Whenever I carry, the gun is full.
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Old March 4, 2013, 12:17 AM   #8
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota1820
I always worry about it going off due to some crazy scenario that the trigger gets hit. Like some crazy accident getting into your car and the holster hung on something or whatever
Which is why one needs a quality holster. A good holster is made from good leather or kydex (a polymer), is somewhat stiff, is made to fit the particular gun, completely covers the trigger guard and holds the gun firmly. Flimsy, generic, nylon or fabric holsters are generally inadequate. The holster also needs to be worn on a good, stout belt.
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Old March 4, 2013, 12:41 AM   #9
dakota1820
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The holster does fine its a nylon one. The belt is an american made leather belt. Only thing I hate about wearinf it on my belt is when you use the restroom and undue your belt it pulls and sometimes allow the belt to twist.
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Old March 4, 2013, 12:45 AM   #10
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I carry condition one all the time. If my carry gun isn't being fired at the range or disassembled for cleaning, it's condition one..........has been that way for 6 years now.

What good is a self defense gun that isn't ready to use?
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Old March 4, 2013, 01:15 AM   #11
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota1820
The holster does fine its a nylon one...
Well perhaps not, since you've said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota1820
I always worry about it going off due to some crazy scenario that the trigger gets hit. Like some crazy accident getting into your car and the holster hung on something or whatever
My holsters are such as I've described, and I've never had such worries.
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Old March 4, 2013, 01:18 AM   #12
dakota1820
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It does an adequate job. I worry because im a new edc and I have a kid so I worry about having it chambered and not on a safety either.
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Old March 4, 2013, 01:44 AM   #13
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota1820
It does an adequate job. I worry because im a new edc...
Yes, we understand that you're new at all of this. So this is an opportunity to learn from those of us with more training and experience. So it's not particularly wise of you to dismiss out of hand the opinions of folks who have good reason to know more about these things than you do.

We were all new at one time.
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Old March 4, 2013, 02:57 AM   #14
allaroundhunter
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Re: do you carry chambered?

Dakota, nylon is not the safest of materials to be used for a holster. It bends easily, and is much more likely to deform and find its way into the trigger guard than a quality leather or kydex holster. If you really want to be safe, then that holster is the first thing that you will need to change....

Is a quality holster expensive? Relative to a nylon one, yes. Relative to a hospital visit because of an ND? Not at all. And what price tag can you put on the safety of yourself and your family and the peace of mind that comes from having a holster that you know is going to do its job correctly all the time?

And you worry about it being loaded and not having a safety and you having a kid. So I will address this. Does your child ever obtain access to your firearm when you are not present or is he or she able to remove it from your holster without you knowing?

And how about this for the safety of your family: Criminals attack people who they see are easy targets. A parent who is busy paying attention to their child is a good target because they can be easy to get the jump on. If this was to happen to you do you really think you would have time to draw your weapon and rack the slide? You would probably be limited to only having your firing hand available because you will most likely be using your weak hand to protect your wife, child or both....

A quality holster, and a round in the chamber is the safest combination.

Last edited by allaroundhunter; March 4, 2013 at 03:03 AM.
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Old March 4, 2013, 09:38 AM   #15
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I will admit to using an Uncle Mike's nylon holster for pocket carry. However, when I do, in addition to The Four Rules of Gun Safety, I add a Fifth Rule: Nothing goes in the pocket with the pistol & holster. Nothing. Not ever. That way, there are no keys or other items to slip into the trigger guard.

When I belt carry, I use a dedicated gun belt (an Aker B21, which is stiffer than a normal belt), and either a Theis IWB or a Desantis Speed Scabbard OWB. Both of those holsters are of the sort that Frank described. Both are stiff and completely cover the trigger area. I am confident that nothing will get into the trigger guard and cause an ND.

We were all new CC'ers at one point or another. Many of us (myself included) have kids. I understand your concerns about carrying with one in the chamber, and the dangers of handling firearms around children. Kids are naturally curious creatures. The best remedies of which I am aware for those dangers are : (1) keep the pistol under your control; (2) when the pistol is not under your control, keep it secured (locked up, separated from ammo, etc.); and (3) education of the child, when that becomes age appropriate.

With all of that said, I always carry with a round chambered. I carry a pistol for my safety, and for the safety of my wife and child. As allaroundhunter noted, a distracted parent makes for an easier target. There is a good argument to be made that you may need to draw your pistol while using the other hand, for example, to fend off an attacker, or to push your child behind you. If you'll search youtube, you can find a video of someone simulating an attack: (1) with a round chambered; and then (2) without a round chambered. I'd suggest that you go watch that video, but I do not have time to go search for it right now.
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Old March 4, 2013, 09:47 AM   #16
BigD_in_FL
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Quote:
and there is no safety.
Beside the one between your ears, that long, stiff trigger pull acts like another. Kept in a proper retention device, it is perfectly safe. I pocket carry a CM9 in a pocket holster sometimes - and as noted, when I do, NOTHING else goes on that pocket, especially keys
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Old March 4, 2013, 09:57 AM   #17
Theohazard
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Quote:
dakota1820 posted:
So I was talking to the store owner about how to properly load the gun. You have to slide the slide back and lock it then stick the magazine in and then relase slide lock. So basically you have to carry loaded all the time and there is no safety.
I'm a little confused by this part. You don't HAVE to carry with a round in the chamber. The Kahr is like any other semi auto; you can carry it however you want. Though, like others have said, a round in the chamber with a good belt and a good Kydex or leather holster is the best way.
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Old March 4, 2013, 10:04 AM   #18
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I always carry a loaded gun when I CCW.
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Old March 4, 2013, 10:17 AM   #19
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I carry with a full mag +1 in the chamber all the time. My gun doesn't have a safety on it and I prefer it that way. I carry mine in a crossbreed IWB holster. I also have a kid. That is one of my main reasons I carry. I am a single mom.
But I still play and wrestle with my kid (13 yrs old) carrying my gun on me. It's protected by the holster and I'm aware enough of where it's at that it's not a factor. He is also aware that it's on me.
I'm still going to be mom with him. Just a mom that is prepared to do whatever it takes to take care of us.
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Old March 4, 2013, 10:29 AM   #20
Ben Towe
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1911, full up, cocked and locked.

I'm confused about why you believe your firearm is defective. Is something preventing you from inserting a loaded magazine with the slide closed and the racking the slide when necessary to chamber a round?
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Old March 4, 2013, 10:39 AM   #21
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I always carry with a round chambered, safety on
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Old March 4, 2013, 11:01 AM   #22
Gaerek
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I carry a Glock with a round chambered. Holster fully covers the trigger. I hate cliches, but the best safety is the one between your ears. Keep your finger off the trigger, and the gun won't go off.

Look in your area for Defensive Handgun classes. They're worth the money, and will help you in your confidence of carrying a loaded and chambered weapon.
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Old March 4, 2013, 11:06 AM   #23
SPEMack618
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When I first started to CC, I was skiddish as well about carrying with a round in the chamber of my Glock.

And this was even after a deployment, in which I often carried a weapon with a round in the chamber and safety on, often times two.

However, being a slave to the Big Green mentality, I was wary of carrying my Glock chambered with a round in the chamber due to the lack of a manual safety. Also, the times I carried a weapon when not outside the wire, we were mandated to have it in condition three. Full mag, bolt foward on an empty chamber, safety on.

It just takes a little time and some confidence in your equipment. In that regards, I was lucky in that I recieved a very nice IWB holster as a groomsman's gift that fit all the criteria listed above by Frank.

I would add, that when seconds count, I don't want to lose a couple racking the slide.
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Old March 4, 2013, 11:08 AM   #24
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My EDC is a Glock which I carry chambered in a good leather holster.

Quote:
You have to slide the slide back and lock it then stick the magazine in and then relase slide lock.
Of the pistols I own, I would consider it a failure or a defect if racking the slide in the normal manner did not load a round, but I have not owned any Kahr pistols. Is this normal for Kahrs, or is the OP being jerked around by the seller? If this is normal, doesn't it pretty much preclude leaving it unloaded or un-chambered for any self defense situation? (Not that I am advocating that, but there are a significant number of folks in the world who haven't learned that it is safe to keep a round chambered. This procedure, if normal, seems extraordinarily cumbersome.)
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Old March 4, 2013, 11:27 AM   #25
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No sense in carrying if you're not loaded.
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