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Old March 1, 2013, 05:33 PM   #1
Sweet Shooter
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UTAH house votes on open/concealed carry bill

This bill has passed the house. The only thing standing in the way is the Governor.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=24246966&nid...cid=featured-1

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Old March 1, 2013, 05:52 PM   #2
Dr Big Bird PhD
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sounds like the governor wont be signing it, according to the article
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Old March 1, 2013, 05:57 PM   #3
press1280
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Not sure if it's quite "constitutional carry" since there can't be a round in the chamber.
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Old March 1, 2013, 06:31 PM   #4
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Our beloved governor has already hinted strongly he will veto these bills should they make it to his desk. He believes our gun laws are adequate enough. Living in Utah I never thought I would have to worry about our governor being anti-2nd amendment. But now I am wondering, who's side is he really on? He will not get my vote in the next election and I don't think he stands a chance in winning. Us people from the state of Utah will not forget this year and his comments.
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Old March 1, 2013, 06:32 PM   #5
sigcurious
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Hrm... seems like an odd piece of legislation as it currently stands.
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Old March 1, 2013, 06:49 PM   #6
Sweet Shooter
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Unloaded = two mechanical actions required to discharge a round. So with a DA revolver you'd need 2 empty chambers, SA just one empty chamber. I don't know if that is nationwide but Utah requires that of open carry.

This bill basically prevents LEOs from harassing a carrier in the event that their gun is accidentally concealed, or from disorderly conduct charges. It also protects a CCP from brandishing charges. I don't think it replaces the benefit of the CCP.

I think it's a good thing. It takes away some of the anxiety with open carry. It means I can open carry my sp101 in my jacket pocket with my hand sleeve concealing it. I can also potentially load that gun stealthily in my pocket in the event I get followed for example. I think.

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Old March 1, 2013, 07:18 PM   #7
sigcurious
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Quote:
It also protects a CCP from brandishing charges.
What part of the one line addition that allows unloaded CC, indicated this to you?

Quote:
It means I can open carry my sp101 in my jacket pocket with my hand sleeve concealing it.
Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by in your pocket but open carried? Your description is contradictory, open carry...while concealed.

Quote:
I can also potentially load that gun stealthily in my pocket in the event I get followed for example.
By pulling the trigger? Or by somehow "stealthily" shoving both hands into one pocket to load more rounds? What if the people following you just happen to be heading the same way? Now you have an illegally concealed firearm or an illegally OC'd firearm if you remove it from concealment if you're not a permit holder.
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Old March 1, 2013, 07:47 PM   #8
wally626
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The article reads that the major issue was with persons out in bad weather hunting getting hit with concealed carry charges. VA statutes just have an exemption for protecting weapons while hunting in bad weather. Seems a much more straight forward way to do this than to have unloaded concealed carry at all times.

I would certainly support concealed carry loaded without permit, this law seems a little off.
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Old March 1, 2013, 10:44 PM   #9
Sweet Shooter
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Quote:
@sigcurious
Quote:
1. What part of the one line addition that allows unloaded CC, indicated this to you?

2. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by in your pocket but open carried? Your description is contradictory, open carry...while concealed.

3. By pulling the trigger? Or by somehow "stealthily" shoving both hands into one pocket to load more rounds? What if the people following you just happen to be heading the same way? Now you have an illegally concealed firearm or an illegally OC'd firearm if you remove it from concealment if you're not a permit holder.
1. 1.If it's concealed then it has to stay concealed. Even "printing" can lead to brandishing charges. By this new piece of legislation even if I have a CCP I can say I was open carrying.

2. I was talking about the sp101 a S/DA revolver I can cock and un-cock the firearm in a big jacket pocket with one hand which will load the weapon, given that there would have to be two empty chambers (two mechanical actions required to fire = unloaded by Utah law) and that there is a transfer bar. By the unaltered legislature the firearm can be in a pocket as long as part of it is visible. The new bill blurs that line allowing my to decide the nature of carry.

3. Yes one would have to be pretty confident one was in trouble before loading the firearm in a pocket.

I'm not saying it replaces the need for a CCP. That should be done additionally allowing even more freedom. Just a step in the right direction. I don't want to have to worry about if I'm showing through anymore, or not visible enough. That is just wrong, and apart from being backwards in Utah (the permit required to conceal vs not required for open carry) the law needs to be made to work for us, to protect us, not against us.

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Old March 1, 2013, 10:49 PM   #10
FrankenMauser
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To those above, that find this bill odd....
It was the substitute bill that got passed today, not the original bill (actual Constitutional Carry) or the amended bill (rural counties only).

Mathis decided to go with the substitute bill, after the Governor told him flat-out that he'd veto any bill along the lines of Constitutional Carry.

Whether the Governor will even sign this one is debatable, since it applies state-wide, not just in "rural" counties where hunting activities are more common. It did pass the House with a good margin, though; and the Senate should be about the same. Vetoing it would be a bad move by Herbert, and he knows it.

If this does get signed by Herbert, it's still a step in the right direction. It's easier to go from where this bill would put us, to proper Constitutional Carry, than from where we are now.


Quote:
The article reads that the major issue was with persons out in bad weather hunting getting hit with concealed carry charges. VA statutes just have an exemption for protecting weapons while hunting in bad weather. Seems a much more straight forward way to do this than to have unloaded concealed carry at all times.

I would certainly support concealed carry loaded without permit, this law seems a little off.
As I (briefly) explained above...
It's because the bill was never intended to end up in this form. It was amended enough that Mathis no longer supported the bill, and the Governor flatly stated that he would veto it. So, he had to go to the backup plan (the substitute bill) to at least try to nibble away at the end goal.
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Old March 2, 2013, 12:36 AM   #11
sigcurious
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Quote:
1. 1.If it's concealed then it has to stay concealed. Even "printing" can lead to brandishing charges. By this new piece of legislation even if I have a CCP I can say I was open carrying.

2. I was talking about the sp101 a S/DA revolver I can cock and un-cock the firearm in a big jacket pocket with one hand which will load the weapon, given that there would have to be two empty chambers (two mechanical actions required to fire = unloaded by Utah law) and that there is a transfer bar. By the unaltered legislature the firearm can be in a pocket as long as part of it is visible. The new bill blurs that line allowing my to decide the nature of carry.
If the new bill passes entirely, I would be cautious about all your assumptions on how it would effect the law in place. It's a small addition, and doesn't change any of the other definitions. You seem to be inferring a lot of change that isn't defined in the law. The bill doesn't change 76-10-501 which defines concealed. So in the case concealed is still concealed and open is still open, it doesn't add any new definitions for this grey area you're implying.
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Old March 2, 2013, 01:15 PM   #12
FrankenMauser
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sigcurious, I believe Sweet Shooter is also including HB 268 in the discussion (Disorderly Conduct Amendment - specifically for OC/CC).
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Old March 2, 2013, 01:30 PM   #13
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That makes a lot more sense in supporting SweetShooter's statements.
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