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Old March 28, 2013, 10:27 AM   #1
HOGSHOOTER
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12ga.slugs for bear defense ? ? ?

In the Revolver Forum (HELP:44MAG OR 454) our members disagreed about shotgun slugs For Bear Defense. I use slugs on deer and Hogs a lot. And one blackbear that went 414lb, I used a 3 inchBRENNEKE BLACKGOLD SLUG went in one side out the otherside. Yeah a blackbear no GRIZZLY or BROWNBEAR. So whats do you think is this slug up to it if force to shoot one of the large Alaskan Bears while fishing or camping.please give both sides and why you think what you do.HOGSHOOTER
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Old March 28, 2013, 10:46 AM   #2
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The consensus amongst pros and agents in the areas where brown bear or grizzly encounters are likely seems to be that the number one option would be the skilled deployment of a 12 gauge loaded with any of the harder than dead soft lead slugs...

Brent
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Old March 28, 2013, 02:41 PM   #3
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Most Alaskan guides do not highly recommend slugs. The hard Brenneke slugs are acceptable, but no one would suggest standard slugs for large bear protection, not really a great choice for smaller bear. Shotguns are sometimes used because they are cheap and accessable.

If I were in big bear country I'd carry a short barreled CRF SS bolt rifle chambered in 30-06 loaded with heavy 200-220 gr Nosler Partitions. A 375 mag would be a better choice, but I'd still go with the 30-06 primarily because of recoil and the fact that I can get 5+1 mag capacity vs 3+1 with a magnum. I'd also use GOOD bear spray as my 1st line of defense

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

A good read. A study conducted by the Alaska Game & Fish Dept on bear protection. My choices are heavily influenced by their findings.
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Old March 28, 2013, 04:41 PM   #4
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Jmr40:

The study looks to be well done, but was completed in 1983, some 30 years ago. Much has transpired in the develpment of ammunition over the past three decades. For instance, the largest shotgun slug in the study is 1 oz and was likely made out of lead. The Breneke Black Magic slugs of today are 1 3/8 oz and are hard cast. Thefiringline staff Vanya, has some interesting and constuctive posts on this subject. Vanya would agree that a good bear spray should be your first line of defense, along with common sense.
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Old March 28, 2013, 06:33 PM   #5
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Here is a little more to think about back in the 1980 or some where close to it a OUTDOORLIFE WRITER did something dumb he shot and killed a cape buff.useing the old REM.7/8OZ foster 2 3/4 inch 12GA they claimed it went threw one lung and lt broke up into chunks against the heart other two were lung shots.My father had the outdoor life mag. until he passed away in 2001.I think this man was nuts to try it but it did it.HOGSHOOTER
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Old March 28, 2013, 07:13 PM   #6
hogdogs
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You can consider it dumb but if I could go on a cape buffalo hunt I would want a .30-06 and a 12 gauge with hard slugs...

If the critter won't come in or let me within 50 yards, I will drop it with the rifle...

otherwise I would really prefer to put the slug in it from 50 yards or under...

Brent
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Old March 28, 2013, 07:37 PM   #7
CurlyQ.Howard
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Here's the slug that I'd use: Lightfield Commander IDS Plus 12 Gauge 3-1/2" 1-3/8 oz Sabot Slug Ammunition

12ga 3.5" Lightfield Commander. The only 3.5" available anywhere. This slug is bore-size .73 caliber, 460 grains (1 3/8oz) flying at 1890 fps for a whopping 3649 ft/lbs of Kinetic energy. By comparison, the 300 gr. Winchester Elite flys at 2000 fps for about 2665 ft/lbs. The Z-Commander has 1000 ft/lbs more! We are releasing this in very limited quantities now. Get yours before they go!!!
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Old March 28, 2013, 10:28 PM   #8
Newton24b
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if i was required to attend an encounter with a big bear on short notice, id simply do what many bear hunters in russia do. get my 91/30 out, and grab a box of that 203 grain russian made soft points. or standard 185 grain softpoints.

if i had advance warning, id have a really really nice bolt gun made, that could use those 20 round ww2 surplus BAR mags loaded with 220 grain jsp.

or if we live in a fantasy world, id be sitting in one of those ww2 british scout cars or a bren carrier with a 60 mm cannon.
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Old March 28, 2013, 10:51 PM   #9
DJEInConcord
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Slugs in a pump gun. Biggest and hardest you can muster.

The pump gun works fast without having to remove your grip. If you have bear problems it is almost always going to be quick and close. Just about every bear I have ever seen just seemed to "appear" out of nowhere. They are sly and quiet.

I only shot two blacks. Both moderate in size. One was with a BP .54 Lee REAL 380 grain bullet that broke three ribs, tore up the lungs and went a measured 36 inches through the bear leaving a ghastly wound channel about six inches in diameter. It knocked the wind out of the bear and slammed him flat on the ground. He still got up a loped off his last 50 yards. The second bear was a head shot with a Mosin which is darn close to an '06.

My 870 works every time, holds a bunch of 3 inchers, and is relatively short and light. But if weight is no problem, like around camp, an M1 with 8 appropriate .30-06 rounds would be hard to beat, and it too works every time. Both would be a comfort.

A bolt gun seems a bit to slow to work the action. And bears being bears can take a lot of lead if it isn't served up just right.
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Old March 28, 2013, 11:11 PM   #10
DBLAction454
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Re: 12ga.slugs for bear defense ? ? ?

Slugs for a black bear but Brown or Grizzly hell no.

Smallest thing I would take is a 1895 Marlin 45-70 with the 405gr rounds.

You need to understand that a black bear is like an angry large Rottweiler. A grizzly is 2,000lbs and 12-14 ft tall and can run as fast as a horse. You cannot put one down with conventional calibers.

Grizzly I would say

.375H&H MAG or larger but rifle like that are not a good choice for quick defense
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Old March 29, 2013, 12:05 AM   #11
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Take a look at Dixie Slugs for a 12ga..
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Old March 29, 2013, 01:44 AM   #12
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Re: 12ga.slugs for bear defense ? ? ?

Thoughts on (I think) Dupleks STEEL slugs?
I keep seeing them advertised in Shotgun news.
1 1/8 oz wasp shaped steel w/ polymer wad and polymer belt
Expanding and non-expanding offered
I think 1450 fps
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Old March 29, 2013, 09:17 AM   #13
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I've seen those steel slugs, and my thoughts were that it would be a lot like steel shot. It might work and it might not, though, but I won't be the one testing it. A hard-cast lead slug would be where I'd place my bets. Luckily, dangerous game in NM is pretty much limited to black bear and cougar, and neither of those are very dangerous. I'd trust 1 oz fosters to take either of those without much problem. Cougars are easy to kill, but if they want to kill you, you'd better be in a sensor-filled electrified cage, because you won't see them coming.

If I were going to be spending any serious amount of time in AK or somewhere with big bears, I'd have to get another .45-70. Someone needs to make a pump .45-70 with a tubular magazine that will handle level 2 loads. Until then, the guide gun is a hard platform to beat in my opinion. Granted, bucked firewood logs don't charge very fast, but my unscientific performance testing of .45-70 hard cast 350 grainers on that medium shows that they'll go through a whole lot of pine without much velocity. I've shot fosters at the same stuff, and it tends to stop short and send the pine log tumbling down the hill. Maybe I'll have to get my wallet out and get some of those other slugs to see what they'll do.

Anyone have a brown bear they'd be willing to loan me? I'll sew up the holes.
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Old March 29, 2013, 02:06 PM   #14
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Pepper spray first. Modern slugs second.
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Old March 29, 2013, 08:54 PM   #15
reynolds357
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.375 Ruger would be my choice. My .416 Rigby is too heavy to carry.
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Old March 29, 2013, 08:56 PM   #16
chewie146
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Now I'm jealous.
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Old March 29, 2013, 11:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
A grizzly is 2,000lbs and 12-14 ft tall and can run as fast as a horse. You cannot put one down with conventional calibers.
2,000 lb grizzlies?

I haven't been to Alaska since the 80's, but back then, 12 gauge slugs were the weapon of choice for big bear defense.
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Old March 29, 2013, 11:39 PM   #18
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Some folks use the 12 ga. pump with slugs, and swear by it, but they've not had to depend on it, the folks I know personally, anyway.

The ideal setup is a partner on watch with a magazine rifle, large bore. The other guy can carry the shotgun, fine, but he's not the main event.

The Forest Service investigated what to arm their work parties with up in Alaska, they decided on nothing less than a .375 H&H rifle. The .45-70 and 12 guage didn't make the grade at that time, I think 1980 was the study year.

They didn't look at .416 Rigby either, wasn't an available commercial cartridge then. Wonder what they'd say now?

They needed penetration about 18 inches, no fragmentation, and full energy expenditure in the animal's vital organs, no over-penetration.
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Old March 30, 2013, 08:05 AM   #19
Jack O'Conner
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On Kodiak Island there is a small Coast Guard Station. A very large bear was killed within the base housing area by an off duty man while BBQ-ing dinner for the family. He killed the bruin with a 12 gauge shotgun slug. This bear is mounted and on display at the station.

Jack

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Old March 30, 2013, 08:16 AM   #20
xtphreak
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Re: 12ga.slugs for bear defense ? ? ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chewie146 View Post
I've seen those steel slugs, and my thoughts were that it would be a lot like steel shot. It might work and it might not, though, but I won't be the one testing it. A hard-cast lead slug would be where I'd place my bets. ...
Which weighs more?
a) 1 1/8 oz lead slug
or
B) 1 1/8 oz steel slug

Which do you think will deform more?
a) "hard cast lead slug"
or
B) steel slug

Not having received them yet, I don't know
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Old March 31, 2013, 08:38 AM   #21
chewie146
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The shape and density of the slug itself is a factor when determining penetration. A ton of bricks and a ton of feathers weigh the same too .
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Old April 1, 2013, 12:30 PM   #22
L_Killkenny
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I've never found standard Foster slugs to be all that great on deer so I questioned their use on big bear. I was pretty well shouted down by the Brenneke crowd. Seem's they are far and way the choice.
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Old April 1, 2013, 02:25 PM   #23
1tfl
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Some (maybe many) East European hunters use 12G shotguns to hunt large bears in Eastern Russia. Their ammo of choice is sabot slugs with hard as steel aerodynamic bullets. Let me see if I can remember the name of those shells.
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Old April 1, 2013, 03:10 PM   #24
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does any manufacturer make hardcast slugs? i dont know alot about them
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Old April 1, 2013, 03:15 PM   #25
L_Killkenny
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Quote:
does any manufacturer make hardcast slugs? i dont know alot about them
Never found any of the foster slugs to be what I'd call soft. Sure you may get some deformation from hitting bone or such but I've never seen anything even close to mushrooming or expansion. Most look like they just came out of the barrel, round nosed and **** like. Just like their performance.
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