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Old February 27, 2013, 11:52 AM   #1
Magnum Wheel Man
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a new & different world...

local gun shop... as per ATF "highest volume independant dealer in MN" forced to quit selling guns...

I know this family personally & I'm not happy...

http://www.albertleatribune.com/2013...-selling-guns/
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Old February 27, 2013, 11:57 AM   #2
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Unfortunately, you have to sign in to read the article. That being the case, it's not going to be possible to discuss this without someone posting the entire article here, which would be a violation of our copyright rules. We can't discuss it as it, and we can't have anyone posting the whole article here. Accordingly, I'm going to close this one as "futile."
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Old February 27, 2013, 01:24 PM   #3
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Whoops. The inability to read the article was due to user error on my part. Accordingly, I'm re-opening this thread. My thanks to the TFL member who brought this to my attention.
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Old February 27, 2013, 04:07 PM   #4
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Still not much to chew on. They don't dispute the infractions it seems. About all we can do is debate the level of punishment. Without info on how major or minor the infractions were.
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Old February 27, 2013, 04:18 PM   #5
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I'm not positive, but they had a gun stolen in 2011 ( same year of the BATF investigation ) ( it was one of those "evil" guns ) it was reported to the police, & afterwards they upgraded their camera system... I'd suspect it had something to do with that, or perhaps "back then" it was just the guy & his wife... if they were selling 5000 - 7000 guns, there could be issues where paperwork got pushed to the side for customers standing in line ??? I don't know... perhaps the stolen gun got the investigation started, & the paperwork was discovered ??? I know them well, & they've done a NICS check on every gun I've bought, & they have a close relationship with the local police & sheriffs departments...

... I do know they are 1st rate people, the bussiness donates heavily to all charities, not only donating tons of guns to Pheasant Habitat, Ducks Unlimited... they hired several people ( I assume to help keep all the paperwork in order ) in the last couple years, so it's not like they are some "crumb bums" they are an intigral business in this area... I buy alot of my guns from them... hate to see them go...
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Old February 27, 2013, 04:18 PM   #6
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"Paperwork errors" can cover a fair amount of ground.

I do, however, find it curious that our government is more than willing to put firearms dealers out of business over "paperwork errors" that did not result in any actual harm suffered to anyone while turning a blind eye to banks committing "paperwork errors" that result in people losing their homes.

Should dealers be careful in their paperwork? Sure, but this is an industry that is treated much differently from any other. If you make an error, willful or accidental, in most others it's just a paperwork error. If you make any kind of violation with a firearm they treat you as though you're planning to immediately go out and start murdering people.
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Old February 27, 2013, 05:33 PM   #7
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It is interesting that in this thread, a "paperwork error" gets the FFL shut down, but in geetarman's thread, a police chief staunchly protests that his department doesn't chase "paperwork prosecutions" against illegal buyers (or maybe it's just ones who fail the NICS check).
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Old February 27, 2013, 07:10 PM   #8
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It's impossible to really discuss this meaningfully without details. However, errors are still errors, and ATF seems to have no sense of humor about such things.

And since we don't know how frequent, numerous or serious those errors were, how can we even intelligently discuss whether revocation of the license was too extreme a penalty?
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Old February 27, 2013, 08:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
"Paperwork errors" can cover a fair amount of ground.
They do. The problem is the lack of any objective, sensible criteria for what constitutes a violation, and which ones should be considered "minor" or "major."

Improperly initialing a form is treated the same as having one that's missing customer information.
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Old February 27, 2013, 10:42 PM   #10
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One of my local gun dealers was audited last year. He had not been audited in more than 15yrs. In the end, the audit found that 21 guns could not be accounted for. ATF told him, that for a dealer that sells approx 1000 guns per year that his performance was above average and to carry on...no harm, no foul. All I know is what he told me, and I have never known him to be anything other than straight up in the many years that I have been dealing with him.
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Old February 28, 2013, 07:26 AM   #11
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info gleened, 2nd hand, from the owner... there was 16 errors in over 30,000 documents, & they said that was unacceptable
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:15 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
And since we don't know how frequent, numerous or serious those errors were, how can we even intelligently discuss whether revocation of the license was too extreme a penalty?
Good point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum Wheel Man
info gleened, 2nd hand, from the owner... there was 16 errors in over 30,000 documents, & they said that was unacceptable
Well, now we know the numerosity, but we still don't know about frequency or seriousness. (By "frequency," I mean: Was it 16 errors over a 30-year period, or the last 2?)
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:21 AM   #13
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I remember Hart Bros. Weaponry coming up in the ATF's investigation of a gun runner, since he purchased quite a few guns from them. I don't recall that there was anything illegal about the sales themselves, though - just what he did with them.
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:23 AM   #14
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since they ( ATF numbers ) sell 5,000 to 7,000 guns a year, we can extrapolate how many years they went back ( 5,000 guns per year = 6 years... 7,000 guns per year = 4.286 years ) so I'd say in either 5-6 years...
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:25 AM   #15
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Well, that answers that, MWM.
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:29 AM   #16
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again, this was a "good" local business, that is likely going to lay off the 3 people they hired, & will no longer be available to donate guns to wildlife fund raisers, & I'm sure that will restrict the amount of donations they can make to other charities like Red Cross & United Way, etc...

what might seem like over regulation, is going to effect the local economy...
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Old February 28, 2013, 10:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
there was 16 errors in over 30,000 documents, & they said that was unacceptable
Under the vague rules, they can do that.

I know of another case with a similar ratio. The dealer pointed out that the overwhelming majority of his paperwork was fine, and that the small number of errors were unintentional.

The response was, "well, you got 20,000 of them right, so you know what you're doing. Therefore, the 20 or so you got wrong constitute willful violations."

This is the sort of pressure dealers have. If the administration doesn't get any overt restrictions passed through the legislature, another form of attack might be such dealer harassment.
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Old February 28, 2013, 10:46 AM   #18
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Red's Trading Post, Twin Falls, ID. was caught up in this type of thing several years ago. It took over a year in Federal Court and tens of thousands of dollars to get the BATF to back off.
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Old February 28, 2013, 11:00 AM   #19
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I think he said he already has $75,000.00 in legal fees & is just sick of it...
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Old February 28, 2013, 11:17 AM   #20
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Based on the new information it does seem that the errors were minimal, unintentional and innocuous. So this appears to be another example of ATF being unduly harsh. Unfortunately, not the first time.
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Old February 28, 2013, 11:27 AM   #21
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Isn't there an ability to file in pauperis or something.. I remember something about US Marshals service process for those too poor to afford their own process server or something similar- isn't there a in forma pauperis ability for them to get legal counsel in this proceeding?

Edit: If not, its about time the NRA-ILA and/or SAF took one of these types of cases to both get IFP for these store owners to prevent them being driven out of business by legal fees.
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