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Old February 24, 2013, 01:09 PM   #26
pax
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It's funny how so many folks who are up in arms over politicians saying you don't "need" a particular type of gun, or the ability to carry more than x number of rounds, are the same people willing to make lists of how much ammunition other people "need."

Can't have it both ways, guys.

Someone sent me a PM last night, saying that my earlier post ("unAmerican") was an insult. It really wasn't; it was just a statement of philosophic fact. Making a decision about what other people "need" -- and making judgments for them about whether their reasons for "needing" it are valid -- runs squarely against the ideals our form of government was founded upon.

I think a lot of the current angst is driven by the same dynamic that made The Grasshopper and The Ant such a powerful little children's story, years ago. But people don't tell that story to their kids anymore.

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Old February 24, 2013, 01:13 PM   #27
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I don't believe there's any such thing, and I think it's fundamentally unAmerican to complain about other people buying stuff.
I actually think it is fundamentally very American to have the right to complain about something that you think is wrong.

That being said, I think it is also very American to be able to buy what you want in quantity since you worked hard to earn the $$$ to make the purchase.
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Old February 24, 2013, 01:28 PM   #28
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I think a lot of the current angst is driven by the same dynamic that made The Grasshopper and The Ant such a powerful little children's story
Exactly. I've always bought in bulk just for the price break. But after the 2008 shortages, I bumped up my 'on hand' quantities. The current shortage isn't really affecting me. What some call hoarding I call planning ahead and has nothing to do with why folks can't find ammo now.

If I knew someone who went into debt to 'hoard' 100,000 rounds I might question their decision making ability and financial acumen, but not their right to do so. I might check in on them from time to time to see if they needed cash more than they needed the stockpile....
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Old February 24, 2013, 01:32 PM   #29
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If I knew someone who went into debt to 'hoard' 100,000 rounds I might question their decision making ability and financial acumen, but not their right to do so. I might check in on them from time to time to see if they needed cash more than they needed the stockpile....
Ohhhh, yes.

Especially on that last bit.

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Old February 24, 2013, 02:02 PM   #30
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Hoarding is all a point of view. If I have a lot and someone else has none, they may view me as a hoarder. That is simply a derogatory label applied to those of us with the forward thinking capacity to be prepared. I do not feel sympathy for the guys whining about not being able to buy ammo now. It was plentiful, cheap, and readily available for 50 of the 52 weeks in 2012. Instead of buying ammo, they walked on by it lulled into complacency by the availability of it. I was the other guy. I was the guy buying a bunch of whatever I needed while it was there looking back at me from the shelf. If being cognizant of what happened in 08 and prepared ahead of time for a repeat occurrence makes me a hoarder to some then that's fine. They're really just mad at themselves because they failed to prepare and I did not. I am not losing any sleep over that.
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Old February 24, 2013, 02:03 PM   #31
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IDK about you guys, but I can't find any ammo anyways right now.
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Old February 24, 2013, 02:07 PM   #32
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I'm not particularly well prepared for an ammo famine like this -- but it's my own fault. No one else's.

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Old February 24, 2013, 02:08 PM   #33
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I actually think it is fundamentally very American to have the right to complain about something that you think is wrong
I believe you are confusing the rights of the person with their views.

Being an American means you have freedom, including the freedom to gripe.
If you choose to gripe about Americans exercising freedom, you at least implicitly argue that Americans shouldn't have freedom.

One can certainly say such a person is unAmerican without also saying they do not have the right to advance such arguments.

To say a person is unAmerican, I think, says that they hold positions fundamentally in conflict with American principles. That they make use of the liberties and principles held dear by Americans to advance those positions makes them no less unAmerican. Nor does proper labeling of their advocacy of unAmerican principles equate to advocating the removal of their right to advance such positions--at least not in America.
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Old February 24, 2013, 02:41 PM   #34
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There's a problem with "need". When someone else decides what you need, you are no longer your own man. Or in the case of Pax, Lady. Only I can decide what I need. Only I can decide if I'm a hoarder.
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Old February 24, 2013, 03:50 PM   #35
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Slippery slope, beware!

Hoarding...such an evil, selfish sounding term. Dragons have hordes. Misers have hoards. Mongols have hordes.

I have a reasonable quantity.

And no, YOU don't get to decide what is reasonable, for me. Nor I for you.

What if I felt that if you had $10,000 in your bank acct, you were hoarding money? I mean, obviously, that's more than anyone needs for day to day living, right? You should be forced to turn all that excess in, so it can be redistibuted to the rest of us! Anyone have any complaints with that logic?

I have been buying ammo and components on a fairly regular basis for the last 40+ years. And I haven't been shooting it all up. I reload for over 30 different cartridges, and have at least several thousand rounds of loaded ammo on hand at all times. And a fair bit more in reloading supplies.

In fact, I haven't bought any ammo or primers in the last couple years. Now, thanks to all the panic buyers, I have a difficult time getting what I am used to getting on a regular basis. If all those people hadn't been so short sighted, instead of waiting and causing a panic induced shortage, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Beware the slippery slope, decide not for others what they need! Because if you do, then someone else will come along and decide what it is that you need, and odds are, you won't like it.

And if it is someone in govt that takes upon themselves the authority to decide what you need, I guarantee you won't like it!
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Old February 24, 2013, 03:57 PM   #36
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Dragons have hordes. Misers have hoards. Mongols have hordes.
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Old February 24, 2013, 04:14 PM   #37
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I define it as somebody (the one using the word "hoard") coveting my stockpile of ammo.
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Old February 24, 2013, 04:18 PM   #38
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It's in the eye of the beholder and the envious. Buying and storing ammo that you will use is not hoarding IMO. Nor is buying more when you find some at a good price.
I agree with that.
I ran into a guy at WM 2 weeks ago who was in his 50's and had been hunting 30+ yrs. He was complaining he had 20 guns and not a single round to go in them cause everywhere was sold out.

Is that the stores fault ? The ammo makers fault ? The people who are buying what they needs fault? Or is it his because he did not have the foresight to already have some ammunition purchased?

Most of the people complaining about others "hoarding" are the ones who were ill prepared 2 months ago.

I do not sell ammo, nor will i ever unless some SHTF event happens and I need to barter.
I consider ammo to be a investment for my future and for my children's future. Just look at how much the prices have risen since 08.
You back then could buy 22 bulk packs for about $11... after 08 they rose to $18-20 ...... just last week there was a website selling 22 bulk packs at $69.. they sold at that price and they raised it to $75... by the time they ran out they were at $84 a pack.

For those who were ill prepared they paid the price. I really hope this "shortage" is a eye opener for a lot of people.

Even the boy scouts know rule # 1 ..... BE PREPARED
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Old February 24, 2013, 04:33 PM   #39
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Agree with Pax , #4 post!
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Old February 24, 2013, 04:39 PM   #40
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Anyone with more ammo than I have is hoarding

Seriously. Because of lessons learned from past experiences I have a lot of ammo. Not as much as many others, but enough to last me at least a year if I were to continue to shoot at my normal pace. But I didn't run out and buy it all at once. Just a little at a time over many years. The largest single purchase I've made was a couple of years ago my brother and I split 1,000 rounds of 5.56 ammo. Some would call me a hoarder, but I bought mine when supplies were good and demand and prices were low. I prefer to call that wise.

I've not bought any ammo to speak of since the craziness began. I'm letting folks who truly don't have any first chance at it as it comes in. When ammo supplies get back to normal I'll replace what I've shot and probably try to build up a bit more of a reserve.
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Old February 24, 2013, 05:29 PM   #41
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We've all seen the price of a box of shells rise from $3 to $12, and now $35 for the same box. Primers from $15-$20 to $40, and powder and brass climbing the same slopes.

The politicians are clamoring for high ammo taxes, ammo purchase registrations, outright bans, you name it.

Anyone who isn't putting a couple of cases away for the long term is being, frankly, a chowderhead.
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Old February 24, 2013, 06:13 PM   #42
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I like MDDs post.
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Old February 24, 2013, 07:28 PM   #43
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Look, buy whatever you can use, expect to use, etc. I don't care.

Just keep in mind that as long as a few people buy everything they can, every time it's available, the 'shortage' will continue and prices will continue to rise.

Now if you're buying it all up to resell it at scalper prices? I have no use for you.
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Old February 24, 2013, 07:36 PM   #44
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Yes, it's all subjective to a point.
But, I like the term "reasonable"- not as Obama defines it, but as most normal minds would.

Is it "reasonable" to have 6 months, or even a year's worth of ammo or components? Probably...

But a recent picture posted of 35,000 rifle primers, well,.... that's the reason why many suppliers have now instituted limits on powder and primer purchases. I only wish they'd had the foresight to to do it sooner.

It doesn't benefit them, to have nothing to sell.

It's almost funny, some of the ads I see running- for stuff most people don't need...but when all you have to sell is pomegranates, you try to sell pomegranates...

And then, there's good ol CTD, killing trees and sending out flyers with no prices at all in it. Well, the USPS needs the money...
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Old February 24, 2013, 07:58 PM   #45
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Hoarding is one thing and flipping is another. I suppose flipping is rapidly becoming a felony in a few states. Unless of course you do a 4473 in the parking lot.
How can flipping ammo be a felony? I don't fill out a 4473 when I buy ammo now, so, why would I have to involve one if I wanted to sell some ammo?
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Old February 24, 2013, 08:02 PM   #46
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I think he's talking about "flipping" firearms, and making reference to the various proposals that would require FFL involvement in all transfers, even between private sellers.
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Old February 24, 2013, 08:34 PM   #47
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I think he's talking about "flipping" firearms, and making reference to the various proposals that would require FFL involvement in all transfers, even between private sellers.
Well, in a thread about ammo, you can understand my confusion.
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Old February 24, 2013, 08:48 PM   #48
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Well, in a thread about ammo, you can understand my confusion.
Good point. I kind of "blooped over" the word "ammo" in the thread title, so his post didn't seem as out-of-place to me.

In my mind, "hoarding" has an inherent element of having more than you'll ever need. Smaug the dragon from "The Hobbit" had a hoard of gold, but why the hell does a dragon even need gold in the first place?

You sometimes see the "extreme" couponers buying dozens of gallon jars of mayonnaise, just because they have a coupon that makes them essentially free. I know that some of them donate the excess to shelters and churches, or trade amongst themselves, but I suspect a lot of the "mass-purchased" food simply goes to waste.
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Old February 24, 2013, 09:01 PM   #49
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Hoarding: Having ammunition I want, but I can't buy, and I can't get you to sell to me.

Its all about me!

1. If I like it, it’s mine..
2. If it’s in my hand, it’s mine..
3. If I can take it from you, it’s mine..
4. If I had it a little while ago, it’s mine..
5. If it’s mine, it must never appear to be yours in any way..
6. If I’m doing or building something, all the pieces are mine..
7. If it looks just like mine, it’s mine..
8. If I think it’s mine, it’s mine..
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Old February 24, 2013, 09:02 PM   #50
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I think he's talking about "flipping" firearms, and making reference to the various proposals that would require FFL involvement in all transfers, even between private sellers.
The problem arises when "flipping" becomes "dealing without a license." If you sell some guns out of your own collection, that's one thing. If you buy a whole bunch of guns with the sole intention of reselling them at a profit, that could get very ugly.

I'm not sure how I'd define "hoarder," since it's something of a pejorative, but distinguishing them from flippers is important for those of us in the business. The former wants the stuff for himself. That presents some challenges, as we've got to set limits on high-demand items in order to keep one guy from exhausting our stock. While they're sometimes disappointed to encounter those limits, they're usually understanding.

Not the flipper, though. He's angry. He's got a window in which to make a profit in his little gray business, and he expects the retailer to be his own little wholesaler. When we say no, open the barn gate because here comes the drama llama. Yeesh.

Thing is, we don't need the flipper. We'll never see him again after the whole mess dies down, and since the items he wants are in such short supply, we have the prerogative of selling them to folks who'll actually be using them.

What's more, Mr. Flipper is selling guns indiscriminately to anyone who waves enough cash at him. That could end up with guns getting lost or misused, at which point they get traced to us. That's a hassle.
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