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Old February 23, 2013, 04:07 AM   #1
Pond, James Pond
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When desire vies with common sense: Sig 232

Not really hoping for an answer or even a suggestion on what to do as deep down I think I know, but I do want to vent!!

I don't have a job that can afford me all my wants and so I have chosen all my guns for a reason.... a practical reason!

And there are criteria beyond cost, too. In this country hollow points are not permitted (making smaller calibers even less calibres) and semis must be carried chamber empty: no locked and cocked here.

I have a G19 for competitions (but also carry if needed), a .44mag for woods, a .38spl revolver (this avoids the empty chamber rule) for occassional carry.

So when I see a used Sig Sauer 232 Stainless for €490 (€750 new), it is:
- more expensive by 60% than the CZs and HPs that I had recently been torturing myself over
- chambered in a round that is less effective than all the others I shoot, bar .22LR
- Less effective as a carry gun, due to not being able to be carried with one chambered
- Less effective as a competition gun as it only carries 7 rounds and .380 is below the minimum 9mm for IPSC matches

And yet I yearn for a 232 as one of the prettiest guns out there... I love the way it looks and feels, but it would serve me almost no purpose at all bar giving me goose-bumps...

If there was one thing I could change from that list above it would be the caliber.

Why, oh why can't this gun not be capable of handling 9x19... Stupid physics...

Why, oh why must I be attracted to guns that cost so much... Stupid economics...

And breath.
OK... Cathartic rant over.
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Last edited by Pond, James Pond; February 23, 2013 at 08:40 AM. Reason: Clarifying subject
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Old February 23, 2013, 04:27 AM   #2
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First off, you really aren't hurting yourself much by using FMJ ammo with smaller (.32 ACP and below) calibers, since the primary concern is penetration. HP small caliber rounds have been known to under-penetrate, making them less lethal than FMJ rounds.

Second, .380 isn't too much of a step down, so even though it is a smaller round, it would still be a decent SD round with good ammunition. Cost does play a factor, at least on this side of the pond.

Third, sometimes, it's ok to spoil youself. If you have the funds available, and you want the gun, get it. The joy of guns is that they can be an investment, and usually used to help fund something else, later down the road.
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Old February 23, 2013, 05:05 AM   #3
Pond, James Pond
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Quote:
First off, you really aren't ....

Second, 380 isn't too much ....

Third, sometimes, it's ok to spoil youself.....
You are NOT helping!!
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Old February 23, 2013, 07:34 AM   #4
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I don't have an income that allows me to buy all the guns I desire as well. Your .38 revolver and a .22 is all you need. Just let the gun buying fever pass and you'll be happier with what you already have.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:46 AM   #5
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Less effective as a carry gun, due to not being able to be carried with one chambered

I'm curious as to why you think this is the case. The P232 has a decocker, the purpose of which is to carry a chambered round safely.

IMHO, sometimes a piece in one's collection doesn't have to make sense. Sometimes we pamper ourselves with nice things. Sometimes we give in to wants and subjugate needs. Sometimes we become obsessed.



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Old February 23, 2013, 10:46 AM   #6
loose_holster_dan
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pretty? yes, but it has one GLARING flaw - if you have hands bigger than a 12 year old girl, the slide will tear into the top of your shooting hand every time the slide goes back. hurts like hell.
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Old February 23, 2013, 11:24 AM   #7
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Well, Mr. Pond, James Pond - I'll try to help (or hurt, as the case may be). Given the conditions that you must use non-hollowpoints, and I'll assume that would normally mean using full metal jacket, I will argue that is an argument actually in favor of .380 acp from a full length (3.6 inch) barrel. In fmj, and in that barrel length, .380 will penetrate enough without over-penetrating too much. 9mm fmj, on the other hand, in many cases would over-penetrate, passing through the target and, therefore, wasting much of its greater energy. Both of them will produce a .355 caliber hole, so it would seem the desired effect is optimal penetration, not energy or expansion. The Sig 232 with fmj gives you that. It has enough power without having too much power for the fmj round used.

I actually believe, without evidence, that is why .380 was so popular among police and civilians in Europe for so long and 9mm was so popular for military use; because before hollowpoints became available 380 acp fmj gave optimum penetration for civilian use in cities without dangers of excessive over-penetration.

I used to own a 232SL and miss it. Hop to get another one day. The Sig is a gem.
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Old February 23, 2013, 01:52 PM   #8
Pond, James Pond
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Quote:
The P232 has a decocker, the purpose of which is to carry a chambered round safely.
It is not to do with being able to do so safely, but rather an unfortunate aspect of the firearm law here: carried semis are required to be unchambered/condition 3...

BTW, that picture has meant that my screen now has a drying tongue print on it. They really are the best looking gun...really!! I "HEART" THE 232!!

So I wish to direct your attention to post #3

Quote:
pretty? yes, but it has one GLARING flaw - if you have hands bigger than a 12 year old girl, the slide will tear into the top of your shooting hand every time the slide goes back. hurts like hell.
Interesting. Perhaps I should just hold one with the slide locked back to see where the slide sits in relation to my hand. Purely for research purchases, you understand...

Quote:
The Sig 232 with fmj gives you that. It has enough power without having too much power for the fmj round used.
For my response to that, I wish to direct your attention to post #3, also
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Old February 23, 2013, 05:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
For my response to that, I wish to direct your attention to post #3, also
I had a feeling I was not helping even though my intentions were honorable.
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Old February 23, 2013, 05:36 PM   #10
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And yet I yearn for a 232 as one of the prettiest guns out there... I love the way it looks and feels, but it would serve me almost no purpose at all bar giving me goose-bumps...

If there was one thing I could change from that list above it would be the caliber.

Why, oh why can't this gun not be capable of handling 9x19... Stupid physics...

Why, oh why must I be attracted to guns that cost so much... Stupid economics...
So, welcome to the gun club. Home of moral dilemmas and artistic cravings beyond anything you've ever dealt with! You think this crowd of enablers is going to talk you down?

Have you ever thought - just thought, never said out loud to anyone - those kids wouldn't miss 475.00... dollars, euros, whatever... from their college fund. That's still 11 years off. A couple of good years of interest rates and it will all be be back...

Welcome! LOL!
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Old February 23, 2013, 05:40 PM   #11
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My Sig p232 SL no practical value but I will never part with it. I do run it to the range a few times a year. It is just a great looking gun.
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Old February 23, 2013, 05:50 PM   #12
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Good for you for weighing all the pros and cons and then paying attention to your common sense as to what you need verses what you want.

Your common sense, if you listen to it, will keep you out of all kinds of trouble. Be thankful you have it. Show your appreciation. Send it off on a short vacation to revitalize itself. If there's a new Sig 232 in your collection when it gets back tell it to get over the past and take care of current business.
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Old February 23, 2013, 06:38 PM   #13
jglsprings
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Good for you for weighing all the pros and cons and then paying attention to your common sense as to what you need verses what you want.

Your common sense, if you listen to it, will keep you out of all kinds of trouble. Be thankful you have it. Show your appreciation. Send it off on a short vacation to revitalize itself. If there's a new Sig 232 in your collection when it gets back tell it to get over the past and take care of current business.
How elegant...
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Old February 23, 2013, 11:20 PM   #14
blackamos
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It was a cold day in Michigan so this evening I opted for my Sig p232 as my carry pistol. I just wanted to put it in the rotation and give it a purpose. Tonight it had a practical value. It is definitely my best looking pistol. I added beaver-tail grips to stop the slide bite.
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File Type: jpg 2012-04-24 16.34.54.jpg (277.8 KB, 41 views)
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Old February 23, 2013, 11:26 PM   #15
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sorry its upside down
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Old February 24, 2013, 04:19 AM   #16
Pond, James Pond
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Honestly, what was I expecting?!

After all these "commiserating" posts all I can say is thank goodness that this shop is shut over the weekend!!

And posting pictures, too?!
Have you never heard the saying "A picture twists a 1000 arms." ?

You lot are heartless
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Old February 24, 2013, 05:06 AM   #17
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Yeah, this isn't really the place to be talked out of a good purchase like that, mate.

I, too, have suffered P232 sickness. When I was agonizing over which .380 to get, that and the P238 topped the list. The practical side of me is very glad I got the P238, the aesthetic side of me... well, it's shrunken and small from under-use, but I'm pretty sure it beats its head against the side of its cell in periodic longing for the P232, even now!

I say, if you have the funds for a fun-gun and don't have a problem letting it sit in the safe, then by all means go for it. If you're like me, and everything you buy but don't use torments you little by little, just appreciate the pictures. It's not worth it, the torment and guilt trips can't compensate for the moment of "oooh, shiny!" you get at the beginning of ownership.

EDIT: God, it IS gorgeous in stainless, isn't it? I had forgotten!
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Old February 24, 2013, 07:26 AM   #18
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I have always liked the Sig P230/P232, but like the Beretta M85FS better so that's where my money went for a .380. Well, one of my Maks is in .380 also, but you get my point.

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Old February 24, 2013, 09:39 AM   #19
Pond, James Pond
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The compromise, of course, would be the Astra Constable, single stack .380 acp or a Mak.

The Astra, a blued example, was the first gun I'd seen in a shop that made me stop and gulp. My first ever episode of gun lust. Before that, I'd simply been looking around for a good value purchase for my first gun.

I had rejected it with a heavy heart because it did not fit my needs.
Later I had seen a 232 and it too had taken my breath away.

Still the same problems with the Astra would apply as they did back then: too few spares (although, being a PPK copy, perhaps some spares are interchangeable with the Walther )

That said, side by side, I find the Sig prettier. I think it is the stainless steel thing...
The Mak I have a soft spot for as it is the gun I learnt to shoot on, but it doesn't hold a candle to the other in looks.

There is an Astra and at €225 it is less than half the price of the Sig. Would those saved €€€ make up for the slight decrease in aesthetics? Dunno.

Aside from breakages, though, I don't think I'd ever wear out a pistol, so perhaps the Astra would be a good choice, or would it be the Sig that almost was... hard to say and expensive to find out...

Forlorn rambling again...
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Old February 24, 2013, 10:28 AM   #20
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Still the same problems with the Astra would apply as they did back then: too few spares (although, being a PPK copy, perhaps some spares are interchangeable with the Walther
The Astra Constable is a far cry from a PPK copy or clone. The gun has been out of production for a good while and parts would be a concern. I carried a Constable back in the '70s and really liked it, but I'd look for something more modern today I think. If the price is good however, the Constable is a comparable pistol, more or less.

The Beretta is top tier too. Very comparable in size and weight to the P232.


Another European pistol you may come across is the Sphinx AT-380. It's compact, has a great trigger and the magazine holds more rounds, 10 or 11 round mags available. Weighs about the same as a stainless P232.


There are many option in this genre. Some really terrific, world class guns. One of the more enjoyable types to shop for. I love my .380s
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Old February 24, 2013, 10:47 AM   #21
Pond, James Pond
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All very nice pistols, but herein lies a real risk of mission creep!!

Initially, I was interested in what looked like nice 9mm Para guns to compliment my Glock. When they came to nothing, I find myself with some cash and a semi buying permit all burning a hole in my pocket: that is the main reason I am keeping my eyes open for a great deal.

I was not looking for a .380 initially, but that used 232 caught my eye as it really is a great deal (in relative terms) compared to a new price and looking at it through the glass it looked like a nice example.

Now, my gun buying fever, as Chettt put it, had me considering the Astra instead as its price tag is not so toe-curling to me.

From there I could easily start considering the likes of the Mak PM, CZ83, and Beretta Cheetah purely because of the shared calibre with the Sig, when the PM is the only gun I have any previous feelings about and yet none of those would come close to either the Astra or the 232 in terms of looks which is where this little adventure started!!

I'd justifiably kick myself if I started lusting after a 232 but ended up buying a Sphinx AT380 at more than the Sig just because it had the same calibre.... How messed up is that?! Just the sort of daftness I am capable of!

I tell, this is like going to the gym: exhausting!!

PS, is this a bad time to point out that I could buy a brand new Ruger LCP or CZ83 for the same as that Sig?
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Last edited by Pond, James Pond; February 24, 2013 at 12:28 PM.
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Old February 24, 2013, 02:47 PM   #22
loose_holster_dan
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the ruger lcp is a piece of trash. stay far away.
the cz 83 is a tac driver, but it weighs a ton and is way too wide to conceal comfortably.
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Old February 24, 2013, 03:34 PM   #23
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So far in my short stinted gun "career" (less than a year) I have become a firm believer of the saying "you only live once". If there is enough money in my savings account and there is a weapon I want badly, price is nothing but a number because I'm buying that gun reguardless.

I recently set a price of $400 for my first carry gun and ended up spending $680. Like I said you only live once.

Others were correct, this is not the place to come if you wan to be talked off the ledge so to speak. I'm afraid I have not helped you in that sense either. Sorry .
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Old February 24, 2013, 03:52 PM   #24
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two is one, one is none.....

Mr. Pond,

In a former lifetime I instructed tactical teams. Can't tell you the number of times, during dynamic shooting drills, someone would trip over something and fall, losing their pistol and having to engage in some spastic effort to recover it.

If you're going to carry one, may as well have a back-up!

Not that you need an excuse...


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Old February 25, 2013, 12:44 AM   #25
JH
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I completely understand. My 232SL is the best-looking handgun I own. It is dead reliable and super accurate. Go for it!
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