The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old February 27, 2013, 01:54 AM   #76
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Sutton
I am working out a way to make our viewpoint of being a CCW holder palatable to Soccer Mom. [emphasis mine]
Willie, you're assuming that we all think the same about this, or that we should. But we don't. Not every CCW holder assumes that his or her role is to protect other people. And that's a reasonable point of view.

So -- first problem -- there are two separate conversations going on here: some of us are talking about finding a new way to talk about what we think our purpose is, and disagreeing about what terms are suitable. But some of us are saying, no, we don't think of ourselves that way, and we should be looking at this differently.

So we're sorta talking past each other.

Second problem: the idea that we just need "better language" to sway non-gun people is an oversimplification. To the extent that Soccer Dad (there are men who are worried by guns, too, and it doesn't make them unmanly) views CCW holders as "gun nuts" who want to play hero, just calling them something else isn't going to change his mind.

Typically, propaganda works by using emotionally loaded words to attach the desired response (fear, desire, trust) to whatever is being demonized or promoted. I don't think "first responder" is going to do that -- it's not, of itself, warm and fuzzy enough. It's actually a pretty technical term -- for most people, I doubt that it's even on their radar. As for "volunteer responder"... meh. "Good Samaritan" is a little better, but it doesn't have the emotional impact of, say "hero." And we're gonna look like idiots if we call ourselves that.

On the other hand, consider "Homeland Security." Homeland... gosh, that's where we live, our very own turf. Security... shoot, we all want that. Now look at what the use of those terms has made acceptable, when combined with a good dose of fearmongering: virtual strip searches at airports... warrantless wiretapping... the indefinite detention and murder of American citizens... etc. Feeling secure now, are ya? That's effective propaganda.

We need, I think, to take baby steps here, and remember that the way to reach people is by starting where they're at, not by expecting them to take some giant leap out of their comfort zone.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 08:04 AM   #77
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,398
Quote:
We used to call them Good Samaritans or Conscientious Citizens.
I certainly like these terms much better. Saying you are a "first responder" to explain carrying a gun sounds like you are just proclaiming yourself as some sort of unaffiliated Guardian Angel (of the somewhat notorious group with a history of staged publicity rescues and members getting arrested for essentially vigilante actions and other illegal infractions) or an unaffiliated, unsupervised, unrequested, volunteer security guard (ala George Zimmerman). If you are not a first responder by happenstance, then it sounds like you are proclaiming yourself on duty and/or on patrol, like professional first responders.

Vanya brings up a good point. Do folks like the soccer moms share the same view? Chances are, no. In fact, many definitely are fearful of self proclaimed hero types. They don't want every nut with a gun coming out of the woodwork to help them, but that is what self proclaimed volunteer armed first responders would sound like to them.

"First responder" does sound considerably better than the whole "sheep dog" nonsense, however, but such attempts at publicly proclaimed self actualization or justification seem completely unnecessary and will undoubtedly be scary to many.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; February 27, 2013 at 06:15 PM.
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 01:15 PM   #78
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,871
Well put, DNS.

And it doesn't hurt to remind ourselves that the primary purpose of carrying a gun is for self-defense. Before anyone decides that his default mode is to be prepared to intervene with a gun (or other weapon) on behalf of strangers, there are a lot of things he needs to consider very carefully. Here are a few.
  • Do I have the training to do this effectively? This isn't just a matter of range time or participating in shooting sports. See this thread on a defense-of-property shooting by an IPSC Grandmaster for a cautionary tale on this topic. As I wrote in that thread, "...there are lessons to be learned from this about the difference between training to shoot -- which Mr. Thalheimer clearly has done rather extensively -- and what actually happens in a gunfight."
  • Do I have a thorough understanding of the relevant laws in my state? You'd better, if you're going to carry at all, and it's frightening how many CCW holders have no more knowledge than whatever was offered in a basic CCW permit class -- if that.
  • How will I know that I'm evaluating the situation correctly? If you make a mistake, and the big guy beating on the young woman turns out to be an undercover detective subduing a drug dealer, you'll be in a world of hurt.
  • Am I prepared for the consequences if I make a mistake? The above is just one example; if a police officer accidentally shoots a bystander, he's indemnified; you are not. You may go to jail, and short of that, you may lose your house, your livelihood, etc. Also consider the emotional consequences: how will you feel if you shoot an innocent person by mistake? Finally, are you prepared to lose your own life, perhaps because a "bad guy" (lousy term) shoots back at you, or because police arriving at the scene see a guy with a gun, shoot him, and... that was you.
For a some discussion of these issues, see this thread. There are some chest-thumping posts -- those are also, umm... instructive.

Bottom line: There is a lot that can go wrong in these scenarios, and Soccer Parents have some justification for their discomfort with the idea of "citizen interveners." It's probably not the most persuasive argument we can use.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)

Last edited by Vanya; February 27, 2013 at 05:06 PM.
Vanya is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 04:07 PM   #79
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,835
In the thread cited just above, the presumptive conditions were put (in summary) that:

- The attacker was in the unquestionable process of producing grievous if not fatal bodily harm.
- The defender was unarmed/incapable of defending himself.
- The matter would be decided in seconds (moments)

I would hope never to be part of such scenario.
But if a witness and having the ability to intervene, I would hope never to have to live with the fact that I was too afraid to defend an innocent.

Maybe it was the way my father raised me.....
mehavey is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 04:45 PM   #80
Departed402
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 864
I would say Hardworker hit the nail on the head in post #64. For the vast majority of people out there “first responders” are the people who drive the vehicles with the lights and sirens, and that won't change.

The importance of the “war of words” cannot be understated, but why try to change the interpretation of “first responder” when terms like “assault weapons” and “gun show loophole” do so much more to harm us all. Taking a minute to actually explain the misnomers used by the gun control advocates, and explaining why it is important to be able to protect yourself will get more people on our side. I will add that I am an LEO, and yes I said our side. I’m not sure if some of you have seen too much of Mayor Bloomberg and President Obama saying that Police Chiefs and LEOs everywhere want stricter gun laws, but I assure there are plenty of LEOs on the pro-gun rights side of this issue too. Utah Sheriffs recently got a lot of attention for their stand on the issue, and I know there are more that share their view.

In closing, I apologize for the LEOs out there that puts their ass-hats on, and try belittle their fellow citizens.

Last edited by Vanya; February 27, 2013 at 05:13 PM. Reason: removed irrelevant political reference.
Departed402 is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 04:48 PM   #81
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
A deputy sheriff's association in upstate NY is one of the groups suing NY over the SAFE act, for that matter... So even in Bloomberg's and Cuomo's state, significant numbers of LE are NOT anti-gun.
MLeake is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 05:29 PM   #82
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 714
Thank you MLeake and Departed for also pointing out that a lot of law enforcement are actually against any new gun control.

I didn't think that the OP was trying to promote the "rush in and be a hero" train of thought... I actually took it to be somewhat the opposite in a way, of more being helpful to others in various ways to put forward a normal view of the majority of ccw holders. I was actually thinking of this topic this morning when I got up for some reason...I will go ahead and 'spit it out' if you will, what I was thinking, instead of trying to polish it up. So forgive me if I come across unpolished about it.

Going back to (shortened):

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
Service to Others

Volunteerism

Good Citizenship
I would say for some who are inclined, to try to work together at the grass roots level, and do some basic community involvement. No, I am NOT saying to go out and be confrontational about "your rights" but more about looking around your community and finding small projects that need to be done, but never seem to get done, and use the grass roots group you are with as a firearm owner to step forward and do these various projects. Some folks want to push the ownership and ccw issue to the forefront, but with this I would suggest, letting it be a secondary issue, but connected. It could be about various things:

Maybe your "Welcome to <City Name>" sign is all grown up, and since spring is coming, volunteer yourself and a few of your firearm owner friends, to go clean up around it, and put some flowers/mulch out before or after your next range trip with your friends.

Or perhaps there is a cemetery near you that is grown up. Why not speak to the person responsible for it, and say something like, "hey, I've got a group of friends, and we do a lot of things together similar to this, but we are also firearm owners or hunters, etc. Would you mind if we pitch in and come over Saturday and clean the cemetery up before we head to the range? Btw, if you like, join us afterwards too."

Perhaps, when you and some friends have a day at the range to shoot, why not also try to keep a few hours free after/before, to do good things around the community. A week or 2 later, why not invite whom you may encounter doing whatever to the range with you, and to help out with the next project as well?

Trying to do community involvement like the above, and being "normal" while doing it, can help give the grass roots group(s) a good image. I would avoid certain talks about "protecting others" etc since, its not the point of the ccw, which is for protecting oneself. Vanya quoted a good thread also on that subject.

To bring it to an end, I would say to try to do things that are helpful, and keep others thinking "wasn't that nice of those guys to do?" Perhaps the next thought they would have would be "I may actually take them up on the offer of going to the range with them in a week or two."

I will think on it more though. If some of you would like me to share those thoughts I will...
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 06:47 PM   #83
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
^^^

What he said. Being a good citizen and having "us" seen as pillars of the community is what wins. I'd appreciate more of your ideas.

My OP was more about "how to have a conversation" than anything else. The intent of it was intended to be on the order of one more tool to use in theb "over the backyard fence conversation with your non gun-owning neighbor"


Willie


.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 07:16 PM   #84
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,871
Great post, Fishing Cabin.

Yes, actions can speak a lot louder than words. If we start by showing that we care about our communities and want to make them better places, we create opportunities to talk with the people we meet, not at them.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)

Last edited by Vanya; February 27, 2013 at 11:29 PM.
Vanya is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 08:09 PM   #85
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,400
I may be oversimplifying what Fishing Cabin is stating, but my read on the whole thing, sheepdog/first responder/volunteerism all comes full circle when I think on my Boy Scout meetings all those years ago.

A Scout is Helpful.

Do a good turn daily.

No need to go wading in to stop a shootout to be a good guy.

Having people associated with RKBA out in the community doing helpful things that have no bearing at all on the 2nd Amendment will do more to help our cause than any phone call, letter, or open carry rally.

My Fraternity did a multitude of things in our local community, adopted a chunk of highway, adopted an elementary school where we helped install new play ground equipment and read to the kids(want a laugh, imagine a bunch of frat boys dressed up like Mike Mulligan), volunteered with the local Cub Pack, etc. All of those things we did because they were both the right thing to do and made our Fraternity look good.

Pro gun orgs- should consider the same.

Great post, FishingCabin.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 09:00 PM   #86
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
^^ You and fishing cabin "get it" and Vanya, although I love ya... you don't understand the intent of what I positied at all. Be a good citizen. And after that's established, let it be know that you are a RKBA Advocate as well. However you do it, you are an ambassador for our rights. We help others by helping ourselves. We proversely influence crime rates where we carry: Just the fact that we do so to protect ourselves influences overall violent crime rates and that helps everyone. Do not be afraid to take some credit for it and to make sure that people know that THEY and the entire community benefits. That's *all* I moot. The words you personally select to carry the message are irrelevent.


Willie


.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 27, 2013 at 09:07 PM.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 09:55 PM   #87
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 714
All the above,

I am thankful that you have some level of agreement with me. (very thankful actually, as well as thankful for the kind comments). I work Thursday through tue night, so it may take me til next week to get some things together more in depth.
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 10:04 PM   #88
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,398
Quote:
We proversely influence crime rates where we carry: Just the fact that we do so to protect ourselves influences overall violent crime rates and that helps everyone.
I don't know what "proversely" means, but crime rates are not influenced by CCW. That is a feel good myth. Individual crimes may be, but crime rates operate outside of the realm of CCW.

See discussion here...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...uns+less+crime
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 10:18 PM   #89
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
"Proversely" means the opposite of "Adversely". It means to influence in a positive way.

Datum is the singular of Data. At the test pilot school where I work, there is a large sign painted on the sidewalk as you leave the flightline to enter the schoolhouse that says "This Data is Good" where the words "This" and "Are" have been crossed out and corrected to "These Data Are Good".

Martini is the plural of Martiniz, so when you next are asked "how many" by the bartender when you ask for a Martini, you can be assured he took Latin. I suggest at least a year of it to round out nearly any education.


Your assertation is subject to a bit of debate as well:

http://www.debate.org/debates/Concea...olent-Crime/2/


Smile, humor should *proversely* influence the conversation.


Willie


.

Last edited by Vanya; February 28, 2013 at 01:38 AM. Reason: removed snarky comment.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 10:57 PM   #90
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,871
No, Willie, I do get it, and I think you're backpedaling just a bit here.

An "over the backyard fence conversation with your non gun-owning neighbor" is a conversation between equals. Yet this isn't how you refer to the people you want to talk to, or to how you want to talk to them:
Quote:
Even a soccer mom can understand this language.

I am working out a way to make our viewpoint of being a CCW holder palatable to Soccer Mom.

This is politics: accuracy is not the point. Let's learn from the opposition, learn to control the language used, and learn to direct some of the propaganda effort our way.

To win the war, it's time for US to begin to control the language of the debate.

...immediately acceptable to the common soccer-mom.
This isn't the attitude of someone who wants to have a conversation with an equal. It expresses contempt for the people you want to convince.

As to the role of CCW holders, you say over and over that you want to convince others that it's to defend them. Here's how you put it in your opening post:
Quote:
But we are the ones on scene, and we can hope to make things better until the professionals arrive. Even a soccer mom can understand this language. Who would not want a first responder in school? We have AED's on every wall.... we have first aid kits in the drawer, we have a school nurse, and then we have the ambulance to the hospital. We have fire detectors, fire extinguisners, and a phone call to the fire department. W[e] should be able to articulate a similar layer of response for defense. [my emphasis]
You mention service and volunteerism, but there's no context for those other than being a person who carries a gun -- no mention of planting flowers, cleaning up the soccer field, delivering Meals on Wheels, tutoring at the grade school.

You've pursued this theme through the entire thread:
Quote:
I believe that I can serve my fellow citizens as a volunteer first responder by training myself and preparing myself to (fight a fire, give CPR, defend myself and those around me).

Be a "Volunteer Sheepdog".

Equate "bad guy doing bad things" to other uncontrollabale events: Fire, Medical Emergency, etc., and make the connection between first response for those other things and first response for someone trying to kill their kids.

"Yes, Mam, if I see a bad man with a gun shooting your children before the police arrive I will help if I can."
I could go on, but... I think that makes the point. All of this makes it appear that you're trying to find a socially acceptable way to say that you're a hero with a gun. The problem is that there isn't one.
............

As to "proversely," "proverse" is a piece of specialized aviation jargon. It has no ordinary-language meaning. None. Do the English language a favor, and don't pretend that it does just in order to be clever.

Kinda ironic, given this:
Quote:
We have a hard time "using words" that are other than pedantically correct. It's a blessing... and a terrible flaw as we try to deal with a group that has no respect whatsoever for accuracy in language. [my emphasis]
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)

Last edited by Vanya; February 28, 2013 at 02:07 AM.
Vanya is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 10:21 AM   #91
Gaerek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 939
I have been using this language since I started carrying. It was one of the things that really got me thinking about my safety. I change my smoke detector batteries every six months, I know how to use a fire extinguisher, and check their charge regularly, I have CPR and first aid training, and know how to use an AED. So if something bad happened in my home, I felt I was pretty covered, except if someone decided to do something to harm me or my family. Anyway, just wanted to add something to something you wrote:

Quote:
Counter: "Only the police should have handguns"

With: "Really? That's like saying that only Doctors should give CPR. Wouldn't you feel better knowing that there are TRAINED VOLUNTEERS who are willing to provide for the betterment of the community a service at their own expense of (insert information about your personal "sacrifice" in time and money to bring this "service" to them) in order to make you more secure?"
What's interesting is that CPR has been around for a lot longer than the public has been taught to use it. The idea of pumping on someones chest to keep their heart going and keep them alive has been around for over 100 years. But the public has only been taught to do it since the 70's or early 80's. If you asked a doctor in 1960 how to keep a heart attack victim alive, he'd tell you to call the ambulance and pray. If you asked him how to do chest compressions, he'd laugh at you and say, go to medical school and become a doctor. I feel that the public feels the same way, in general, right now about carrying a gun in public. Oh, only trained professionals should be allowed to carry a gun! It's ridiculous because by the time the professionals arrive, the damage has already been done...this is why we have smoke detectors, fire extiguishers, first aid kits and AEDs.
Gaerek is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 10:24 AM   #92
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
An "over the backyard fence conversation with your non gun-owning neighbor" is a conversation between equals. Yet this isn't how you refer to the people you want to talk to, or to how you want to talk to them:



Well:

I really don't consider my next door neighbor to be my equal when it comes to knowlage of RKBA issues, or firearms, or in fact even their basic reasoning and logical analysis ability. Critical thinking is not a strong subject generally, and especially when it comes to RKBA issues.

I'm about as far from thinking of myself as a "hero with a gun". I am quiet, polite, retiring, and do not draw attention to myself. I am, however, of the mind that I am part of the good fabric of my community and believe that my community recognizes this. Further, I think that it's important to let people know that within a balanced "whole" as a good citizen that being on "our" side of the RKBA debate is something that just ought to be taken as a matter of natural consequence of being prepared to be a good citizen. Nothing more, and nothing less. Each of us should engage our brains to figure out in our own way how to best accomplish this. There is no "one way fits all".

I am often very pleased when someone says, after knowing me for some time in polite social circles, that I am an RKBA activist. Often the comment is "You are a NRA member? I would have never guessed", meaining (in code) "I cannot believe that someone as (polite, professional, rational, sensible, well dressed, insert typical stereotype here) is part of THAT rabble". It's a teaching moment for me to be able to say "What did you expect?"


Enjoy whatever discussion comes here next, I'm not going to argue this further. In fact, I'm surprised that we are arguing at all: I've neither the time nor the general inclination to do so, and all I wanted to do was to invite others experessing their opinions on how THEY try to control the battle of language, not to defend my own choices. Share what YOU do, as our friend Fishing Cabin has done (and privately promises to do mkore of as he has time) Contribute to the conversation. Let's each do our part to win the battle. Part of it is the battle to control the language. Be aware of it and use words carefully. We are all on the same side here.



Try this:

"I shoot an assault rifle. I shoot a military handgun. Both are fitted with high capacity magazines".

v/s


I shoot a modern sporting rifle designed in the late 1950's, which is the the most common rifle model in the world. I shoot a handgun classified as a Curio and Relic, the Model 1935 Browning. Yes, both are fitted with their factory standard capacity magazines.


Just open up to the idea of softening things a bit. Wag more, and bark less.


Willie


Proverse (adjective) : A positive result or reaction as opposed to adverse as a negative result or reaction. "His intervention in the matter caused a proverse reaction". Merriam-Webster Dictionary.


.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 28, 2013 at 11:24 AM.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 12:25 PM   #93
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiilie Sutton
I am often very pleased when someone says, after knowing me for some time in polite social circles, that I am an RKBA activist. Often the comment is "You are a NRA member? I would have never guessed", meaining (in code) "I cannot believe that someone as (polite, professional, rational, sensible, well dressed, insert typical stereotype here) is part of THAT rabble". It's a teaching moment for me to be able to say "What did you expect?"
Perfect. I'd say that recognizing "teachable moments" and taking advantage of them is a lot more important than trying to come up with a formula to use when doing so.

Cheers --

V.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)

Last edited by Vanya; February 28, 2013 at 02:31 PM. Reason: no more word-talk.
Vanya is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 12:41 PM   #94
bazookajeff89
Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2013
Location: Great Falls, MT
Posts: 47
As far as i'm concerned and since we are making up names, I am a "Responding Samaritan."

I completely agree that words and terminology are the ammunition used in this fight. On a daily basis i see things that certain reporters or politicians say, that while may not be a proper description, is also not untrue. Take "assault weapon" for instance. I don't want this to get into a debate about the fallacy of the term but semi-auto rifles are weapons that can be used to assault others. This is also true of hammers, other guns, a shovel or whatever else you want to use, but the problem is, it's been coined, is "commonly" referring to what we see it as now and it's not something that will change. As far as i'm concerned those words were a 50 BMG of ammunition straight at the 2A cause.

First Responder is already a coined term, with common meaning and I like the idea of calling CCW holders who take action that but i can see how it would get messy and just another point of contention instead of focusing on the real issue. Words can do incredibly deadly, life building things. Just look at what President Obama(yes President, not Mr. just because I don't like his policies doesn't mean he's not my Commander in Chief.) has done with some nice words in speeches.

The fact is, that while gun owners are responsible, hardworking, honest people, the general populace is easy to sway with the right thing said.

I am a Responding Samaritan. I take it upon myself to defend others who may not be able to defend themselves. I have the utmost respect for the Police and am not trying to take the law into my own hands. But whether it's with Gun or fists, cellphone or an AED i will do my best to help my neighbors and my community.
bazookajeff89 is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 01:20 PM   #95
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,871
On reflection, I'm reopening this. However, let's drop the off-topic linguistics discussion (to which I contributed ) and stay on the original topic.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)

Last edited by Vanya; February 28, 2013 at 03:29 PM. Reason: clarification
Vanya is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 04:32 PM   #96
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
^^^

What you are missing is that propaganda works.

It's working for them.

We are ignoring, or more correctly not properly exploiting, the tool.

As a result, we are *losing*.

Yes we feel that we are "winning" but all we are doing is damage control.

The other side is offensive, we are defensive, and all we can call a "win" is maintaining the status quo, which we are not maintaining. We are LOSING. We need to win. Part of winning is winning ideas, and (sadly) winning ideas is a propaganda effort.




Willie

.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 05:40 PM   #97
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,398
Quote:
What you are missing is that propaganda works.

It's working for them.

We are ignoring, or more correctly not properly exploiting, the tool.
Calling ourselves first responders isn't the answer. Telling everyone that they are better off because we carry isn't the answer. These are nothing but feel good efforts to make us feel better. These are efforts along the lines of thinking that Sarah Palin was going to carry the election for us. Pro-gunners thought she was wonderful (see the various old threads here that show this) because she was pretty and pro gun, as if those were the only issues at hand. The problem was that carrying our own vote wasn't the problem. The problem was gaining new votes. Fence sitters and anti-gunners were not impressed by her being pretty or being pro gun to any significant amount.

What you seem to be missing in the propaganda game is that promoting ourselves on the features we really like happens to be some of the features that scare the hell out of the non-Republican and non-pro-gun community that we are trying to convince. It isn't about what we want when you are convincing others who don't share the same views. It is about what they want.

Never mind that telling everyone, as you suggested, that they are better off because we are around is going to be perceived as downright arrogant. That would be poor propaganda.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 05:43 PM   #98
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
OK, well then.... Come up with something positive then.


Scratch your head and come up with something. Really. Saying "No" is easy. Now offer something as an alternative.

Because if you cannot articulate it here, you cannot speak with the people we need to reach. Hiding among friends does not work.

The antis have figured it out... how about us?



Willie


.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 07:53 PM   #99
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,667
As I see it, and as I've said in the past, the first step is for each of us to be a good ambassador for gun ownership. Are you the type of person, in your manners, tastes, interests (aside from guns), about whom someone might say, "Gosh, I would never have expected you to be a gun owner"?

It will help our cause for each of us to be a multilayered, well rounded person; active and contributing to society in a variety of ways and spheres -- our careers, our communities, local charities, the arts, etc. We're not just "gun nuts." We're active, participating members of our communities, and we just happen to own firearms and are interest in, and knowledgeable about, them.

The points are (1) to break down stereotypes; and (2) to increase our credibility.

On the other hand, casting ourselves in the role of "first responders" probably feeds many negative stereotypes of gun owners. It conjures up images of vigilantes.

We have a lot to say. The "should only doctors know CPR" can be a useful response -- to the extent the proper foundation is laid. Our treating guns as safety/rescue tools can be a useful concept. But for people to listen to and hear such things, we must first be people who are (1) not one dimensional; (2) credible; and (3) the type other people take seriously.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 08:56 PM   #100
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,624
Talking Point: "I am a First Responder".

Something positive?

I'm a prepared father and husband. My job is to protect my family. If that means changing the TV station, fine. If that means giving my life to protect theirs, so be it. That's my job.

I don't need to try to change the meaning of words.

"Father"

"Husband"

If someone doesn't know what those words mean, I don't much care what their opinion might be.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13966 seconds with 7 queries