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Old February 23, 2013, 02:09 PM   #26
Sarge
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We used to call them Good Samaritans or Conscientious Citizens. I still have no problem with either of those terms myself, as they relate to folks out in public and minding their own business, when they happen upon an emergency and feel compelled to act.
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Old February 23, 2013, 02:13 PM   #27
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"Zero-ith responder"

When part of a national urban search and rescue group, we debated what you call persons who respond before the "real first responders" arrive.
The term "Zero-ith" was coined as they don't have to arrive first as they're already there.
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Old February 23, 2013, 02:17 PM   #28
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I love the concept of concentrating on positive things:

Quote:

Service to Others

Training

Volunteerism

Good Citizenship

What you do for them
The world is so angry on this topic right now. It's good to see someone working hard to build bridges rather than walls. Thanks.

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Old February 23, 2013, 03:11 PM   #29
breakingcontact
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Hate this topic.

Yes, the police and emergency medical professionals are better equipped and trained.

Until they get to the scene, we're kind of in this together.

911 isn't magic.
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Old February 23, 2013, 03:20 PM   #30
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Quote:
A first responder here, is one who is tasked with being in the group of the first units dispatched to an incident.
no. it the generic sense they are the first citizen's there.
In the legal sense ("certified") are people indemnified and specifically do not have to be tasked
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Old February 23, 2013, 03:27 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections Cop
First Responders are by law, LEO, EMS, and Fire. They don't want un trained Joe Blow with a CCW in the mix. A first responder is someone trained to give basic life support. Just becuase you have a CCW doesnt mean you are a First Responder, unless you have the training.

Here is Wikipedia's Definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_responder
The link Corrections Cop posted defining First Responders.....refers to "Certified First Responders". There's a lot of us out here that have had first aid, medical, survival, firearm, and other training that can be of service without a certificate of authenticity or license.

The term "First Responder" as the OP pointed out is appropriate.
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Old February 23, 2013, 06:46 PM   #32
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I am perfectly happy with "Good Samaritan."

I also agree with Fishing Cabin, and others, who posit that it's more about actions than about titles.

But the OP has a point, in that we often seem to allow the antis to dictate the language used in the debate, and we should do something about that.
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Old February 23, 2013, 06:57 PM   #33
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Maybe first responder is one of those words that should be banned from the internet?
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Old February 23, 2013, 08:10 PM   #34
Willie Sutton
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Gentlemen:

Ya'll are way too smart for this.

I am working out a way to make our viewpoint of being a CCW holder palatable to Soccer Mom. She thinks a modern sporting rifle is an assault rifle. She thinks that a 15 shot standard-capacity magazine is a large-capacity magazine. She also thinks a first reponder is someone who is there to help her thru the awkward moments when she needs a nanny to take care of her. We want her to like us and to believe that we can serve her interests. So let's use language that she "gets" in order to get her confidence and maybe her vote. She can care less about the 2nd amendment. She will tune out our other talking points. But convince her that we can make HER and HER CHILDREN safer and we win.

This is politics: accuracy is not the point. Let's learn from the opposition, learn to control the language used, and learn to direct some of the propaganda effort our way.


Note that:

I shoot a modern sporting rifle.

My Beretta 92 is fitted with a standard capacity magaine.

And I am a CCW for the same reason that I hold a CPR card, and hold an EMT certificate, and have a fire extinguisher in my car. It's because in the minutes before a full time professional comes to relieve me, I am a first responder who is willing to help society at the same time that I am helping myself.


She understands those words. That's all that counts.


Willie


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Old February 23, 2013, 08:18 PM   #35
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Depending on how you look at it; from the British side the First Responders were the Red Coats and from our side the First Responders were the Minute Men.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:35 PM   #36
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How’s about ( I am your Neighbor ) I have a fire extinguisher , I have CPR card , And I am a owner of firearms How may I help?
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Old February 23, 2013, 11:03 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longun
How’s about ( I am your Neighbor ) I have a fire extinguisher , I have CPR card , And I am a owner of firearms How may I help?
This is the best reply (I feel) yet. It shouldn't be tied to a 'responder' status or tied to training. It should be tied to I am here, and willing to step in and help.
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Old February 23, 2013, 11:47 PM   #38
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Willie
I got you we took this a very diffrent way that you ment it to go....LOL

Well let that soccor mom know that if her and her child are out shopping and a robber shows up and is trying to get he money or child or both if you have you hand gun with you, (not wanting to use it) you pull it out and scare the robber away with no harm or loss wouldnt that be enough for her. And all you would want in return is a thank you...

I understand what your trying to do... I try to do the same in this wonderful state of NJ but I keep getting thrown to the wolves and they look at me know Im nuts... But Im not giving up. And 3/10 I go for my non resident CCW class. So I will have it but wont do me any good in Jersey.

We do have room in the class if anyone is interested and your in NJ get back to me Ill give you the info.
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Old February 23, 2013, 11:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
How’s about ( I am your Neighbor ) I have a fire extinguisher , I have CPR card , And I am a owner of firearms How may I help?
That sounds great to us. I fear the problem lies in social conditioning.

The simple statement that "I'm carrying a pistol" shouldn't be cause for concern absent other alarming factors. It really shouldn't. It should be right up there with "I've got a pocket knife handy" or "I know CPR."

However, that's just not the case. Such a statement is all too often cause for startlement (which is totally a real word, because I just used it. Bug off, spelling filter!) and confusion. How do we reverse that? I don't have an answer.
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Old February 24, 2013, 12:15 AM   #40
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Willie, I think I might of hurt your feelings, especially coming from your backlash on my statement. I am not a cop, and don't claim to be one. I am just posting on your comment. Some people on this board seem to think that because they have a ccw they can do anything they want. I would help them cops out in a minute, sometimes it happens. But when I am asked to leave I would leave. You are never going to change the way some anti 2A people think. Some of those Anti's seem to think that all people with CCW's do is run around and look for trouble and want to play cops. I have my ccw to protect me and my family first. I am not out to single handedly take on the world. People seem to get all up tight when common sense is injected into conversations on this board. Just realize that I disagree with you and leave it at that, thats no reason to get defensive and make comments about police officers and corrections officers.
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Old February 24, 2013, 08:32 AM   #41
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^^^

I think that we, as a group, filter out the world into people like "us" and antis. But that's not the case... hard core antis are actually not that common. Much more common are "know-nothings" that know what they are spoon-fed by the mass media. Those are the people I am trying to reach. When you make them understand that it's volunteers who stand between them and (fire, medical emergency, etc) because there are not enough full time professionals to be everywhere, everytime and can leverage our interest in self defense to one of community defense you can build a cognate set of ideas and may be able to reach them.


It's just one tool in the rhetorical bag. My frearms battles are no longer won on the range in competiton. My firearms battles are now won one housewife at a time. Right now I could care less about 2nd amendment proponents who can shoot. Far more valuable to be able to TALK.


Willie

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Old February 24, 2013, 01:41 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Sutton
Right now I could care less about 2nd amendment proponents who can shoot. Far more valuable to be able to TALK.
Couldn't agree more, Willie. And I think you're spot on when you say that hard-core anti's are in the minority. But I think that for a lot of people whose opinions are based on what they see on the news, the "first responder" argument will be filtered through their fears of "more guns on the street."

The analogy between CCW permit holders and citizens who have taken emergency medicine courses and are certified as first responders is very tempting, but I think it's a false one. Certification as a medical first responder implies that one will be helping others; the primary purpose isn't to do first aid on oneself.

The primary purpose of a CCW permit is for self-defense; the secondary purpose is for defense of one's family. Protecting strangers is a distant third. It's natural to imagine being a hero, being the one who steps up and stops or prevents a crime -- but I think that when engaging anti-gun (better non-gun) folks in conversation, it's best to stress the first two. We don't want to give people who may be on the fence about this issue the impression that we're eager to play cop or hero.

The one place where I think the analogy is valid is that Rule One, for medical first responders, is "Make sure the scene is safe -- don't become another victim." I think we're apt to overlook the importance of this for situations where we might want to use a gun to protect others. And for the people we'd like to convince, it may be also useful to stress that we're guided by "First do no harm," as well.
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Old February 24, 2013, 01:43 PM   #43
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MLeake, in Kansas you would be known as a good Samaritan for all those things you have done. I wish there were more people like you.
Willie, I understand and agree with what you are trying to do here as well as the sentiment behind it. You are trying to bridge the gap in the minds of the ignorant masses. However your nomenclature is borderline deceptive. When people hear the term first responder, they think EMS, fire, police, rescue, etc. They do not associate a good Samaritan with a firearm in that same line of thought. I do however disagree with your claim that because you have a ccl you are in some position of authority above the persons to your left and right at a fire or medical emergency. Your ccl has zero to do with those situations. To claim anything else is incorrect and self-aggrandizing. If you are the first at a medical emergency when I roll up in the ambulance, I will ask you what you saw and what if any interventions you have provided to my patient. It is then up to me whether you are allowed to remain on that scene. Your status as a ccl holder means squat. If you are competent and willing, I may ask for your assistance until more help arrives if the situation warrants it. You are under no obligation to provide any further assistance to me though. It is up to you but you sound like the type who would gladly help. On the other hand, I have also had people who would not do what they were told and were hindering my ability to care for the patient. In that scenario I have asked them to leave the scene. If they refuse I will radio to dispatch to send a deputy to remove that person from the scene.
As I said initially, I agree with what you are doing but I don't likethe idea of purposely confusing people into thinking you aresomething you are not.
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Old February 24, 2013, 01:47 PM   #44
Willie Sutton
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When people hear the term first responder, they think EMS, fire, police, rescue, etc. They do not associate a good Samaritan with a firearm in that same line of thought.


That's exactly the point. It's what we should change.

We need to be seen as the good guys that we ACTUALLY ARE.
This is a war of public relations. It's a salesmans pitch.

SELL us as a group. CLOSE THE SALE to your neighbor. Use the language of a SALESMAN.

In the war of using creative language WE ARE LOSING. We need to win.


To win the war, it's time for US to begin to control the language of the debate.


Speak to the fact that bad guys are less likely to rob THEM becasuse the bad guys fear that the potential victim is one of US should be used as a constant talking point. WE help THEM even when the assistance is cryptic. SELL IT.


"Yes, Mam, I am an armed citizen. No, Mam, I mean no harm to anyone. Yes, Mam, if I see a bad man with a gun shooting your children before the police arrive I will help if I can. Yes, Mam, I would prefer to let the police take care of it, just like I would prefer to a cardiologist to be on hand when my Father has his next heart attack, but since that's not likely I took CPR, and in the same view of hoping for the best while preparing for the worst I choose to be armed. Yes, Mam, I also volunteer with the Boy Scouts and am a member of the Rotary and Toastmasters. I am your neighbor. I am a good citizen"....




Show some creative thinking, guys. In the words of Bill Jordan, there is no second place winner.


Willie

.

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Old February 24, 2013, 01:59 PM   #45
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As a Paramedic I don't give a rats ass what someone wants to be called when the shtf, just do something to help. But I do agree with Willie Sutton, we need to be positive and bridge the communication gap.
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Old February 24, 2013, 02:12 PM   #46
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Fight fight fight....

It sounds from a few of WS's recent posts on TFL that fights & confrontations are more important that rational thought or civil discourse.
The forum member is entitled to their views but I'm not going to waste any time with meaningless topics.

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Old February 24, 2013, 02:29 PM   #47
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Nitpicking and straws.

At the exact time of an incident is the person receiving the crime against them an initial respondent to the crime, or a victim?

When I think of this I look to the word "respond." The person, at time of incident, is an immediate victim (one that is acted on, usually adversely.) Respond, on the other hand, is in answer to, in this case, an incident.

Therefore, imo, a person having an act committed against them is in fact NOT the first responder, rather the first victim (responders are in answer to the situation of the victim).

As far as who is a first responder….99.99% of the time the TERMINOLOGY is reserved to those who are trained and employed to deal with all the encompassing issues/crimes/situations of the public (ie: police, fire, ems).

TECHNICALLY, if you want to to get to the gritty, the LITERAL first responder would be the first person on scene that is NOT the victim.

For this reason, and solely for the sake of this argument, it would not be a bad idea to characterize two responsive divisions. LITERAL first responder and TRAINED (employed) first responder. With these two subdivisions comes laws and possible litigation based on the actions of the first responder and their status, training, and intent (ie: good sumaritan law).

I also recognize the difference between civilian (police) and non-civilan (military). However being that the public is not in daily contact with the military personnel, and that they do not have the authority or powers the Police do (therefore creating a legal divide); it is not absurd to understand the practice of the phrase by police. To say we should b outraged by that is, though, more absurd than the previous issue.

and Willie, we get it, you don't like the majority of cops…getting into the field cops learn to accept the ridicule and know those people will still call and that they will still serve those same ridiculous people. You come off very bitter…i'm sure there's some allegations or failed apps that goes along with that.
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Last edited by Vanya; February 24, 2013 at 02:53 PM. Reason: removed personal attack.
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Old February 24, 2013, 02:34 PM   #48
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I recently had a police officer that I had graduated high school with inform me that his worst fear is showing up to a call where someone with a CCW attempted to save the day. He then went on about how poor his departments response time was but "It isn't because of poor intentions". As he proceeded to lecture me about my military training not being adequate for legal self defense, I decided I needed to exit the conversation.

I have nothing against First Responders, however I have no intention of sitting idly by when I can actually take actions that will save lives. If my military ID or CCW license doesn't apply, screw it I am still a Red Cross lifeguard. In fact, that is the first card I'll pull out no matter what the situation.
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Old February 24, 2013, 02:38 PM   #49
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Quote:
As he proceeded to lecture me about my military training not being adequate for legal self defense, I decided I needed to exit the conversation.
Was he lecturing you, or telling you something *true* that you didn't like?


I don't know any cops that don't appreciate good samaritans….weekend rambo joe is the guys they are wary of.
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Old February 24, 2013, 02:43 PM   #50
Father Time
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As a "first responder" (Firefighter/EMT)
I will add my two cents:

First off this attitude:


Quote:
Our 'First Responders', our LEO are nothing more than civilians paid to do full time what we do given the chance. If the idea that this 'advanced training' is what gives them the title, then I would love to go take the training.

They should have no more powers, they should have no more rights. Even when it comes to arrest.

We did not create an 'us versus them'. They did. By their own actions. By placing themselves above us 'civilians'.
IS BS!!! We are NOT placing ourselfs over you.

Our "training" it only part of what gives us the means of doing our job effectivly. The other part is teamwork and close co-operation with the other people. I know what the other guys on my crew are going to do before they do it.... If I'm hanging off a 100 foot cliff trying to pick off a person that got stuck trying to climb down I don't want joe blow working the haul system or doing the safty checks. I want someone I have worked with and trainined with so that I KNOW that THEY KNOW what they are doing.
We even have a year long "probationary" period for new hires to see if they are going to work out... This is in reality a continuation of the hiring prosses so that we can see if they are truly cut out for the job. They may hold all the needed creditials and certifications but that dosen't mean they will be a good firefighter.



Second:
We (firefighters)
Have ZERO problems with "civilians" getting training... However, The ugly truth is these job *can* be very dangerous. And haveing some training is very likely to get you in over your head and kill you. The second half of this ugly truth is that most people that are "trying to help" just slow us down and get in the way. Instead of having to focus on the patient now we have to treat the patient AND whoever was "trying to help".
So go get all the training you want. You can enroll in a fire academy very easily. You don't have to get a job to get certified. But keep in mind one thing.
Taking a class is NOT the same as doing something full time.

Here is an analogy... Jogging every day and takeing a Carbine class dosen't make you an Army Ranger does it?

Last edited by Father Time; February 24, 2013 at 03:05 PM.
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