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Old February 23, 2013, 08:33 AM   #1
Willie Sutton
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Talking Point: "I am a First Responder".

Tom Servo used a phrase in another thread using the term "First Responder", a term that has been "hero-ized" by those who want to use language to influence opinion. Since language is ammunition in the rhetorical fight, and since control of the vocabulary is the next best thing to having the right ammunition for your handgun (see "Assault Rifle" v/s "Personal Defense Weapon", etc). Tom's use of the term "First Responder" really struck a chord with me.

The next time the (school, church, sensitive place, common street scene, etc) conversation regarding CCW comes up, from now on I am going to use and reinforce the term "First Responder" when discussing CCW holders. No, we are no more the "end response" to a violent attack any more than an EMT is the "end response" for a heart attack. But we are the ones on scene, and we can hope to make things better until the professionals arrive. Even a soccer mom can understand this language. Who would not want a first responder in school? We have AED's on every wall.... we have first aid kits in the drawer, we have a school nurse, and then we have the ambulance to the hospital. We have fire detectors, fire extinguisners, and a phone call to the fire department. Wh should be able to articulate a similar layer of response for defense.

"No, I am not looking for a fight. I do not want to (fight a fire, perform CPR, or shoot a felon) but I am a good citizen, and I believe that I can serve my fellow citizens as a volunteer first responder by training myself and preparing myself to (fight a fire, give CPR, defend myself and those around me).



Control the language and you control the debate.


Be a "First Responder", not an Armed CCW Holder.

Be someone who can "serve his fellow citizens" to make the progressives feel better... trust me, they want to FEEL better. Give them what they want. Articulate your selflessness... your investment in time and money, etc., and show how it can help them. The other side loves collectivism. Use language to show that you are part of their worldview. Be a "Volunteer Sheepdog".

Use terms that they can understand and are comfortable with.

Win the battle of words one person at a time.


Counter: "Only the police should have handguns"

With: "Really? That's like saying that only Doctors should give CPR. Wouldn't you feel better knowing that there are TRAINED VOLUNTEERS who are willing to provide for the betterment of the community a service at their own expense of (insert information about your personal "sacrifice" in time and money to bring this "service" to them) in order to make you more secure?"


Stress:

First Response

Service to Others

Training

Volunteerism

Good Citizenship

What you do for them

etc.


Equate "bad guy doing bad things" to other uncontrollabale events: Fire, Medical Emergency, etc., and make the connection between first response for those other things and first response for someone trying to kill their kids.


Just Willie's semathics thought for the morning.


Willie

.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 23, 2013 at 08:47 AM.
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Old February 23, 2013, 08:35 AM   #2
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I've also been looking at that term. I've made the comment that the real first responder is usually the victim. I mean no disrespect to police, fire, EMTs, etc., but they are actually the second responders.
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Old February 23, 2013, 08:51 AM   #3
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First Responders are by law, LEO, EMS, and Fire. They don't want un trained Joe Blow with a CCW in the mix. A first responder is someone trained to give basic life support. Just becuase you have a CCW doesnt mean you are a First Responder, unless you have the training.

Here is Wikipedia's Definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_responder

Last edited by Tom Servo; February 23, 2013 at 10:18 AM. Reason: Removed "SH&$"
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:00 AM   #4
Spats McGee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections Cop
First Responders are by law, LEO, EMS, and Fire
AR-15s were "assault weapons" by law, too. That doesn't make it an accurate description.

My contention is not that CCL holders are automatically first responders. My contention is that, factually, the first person to respond to an emergent situation is the victim, regardless of whether that person holds a CCL.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:02 AM   #5
Willie Sutton
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^^^ Awww, Corrections Cop.... did I hurt your feelings?

It sounds like *someone* wants to feel more special than the unwashed "civilians". Probably feel that you "need" 30 round mags while we do not "need" them because you are.. "different" than us civilians?

Oh, wait... Police are Civilians too.... And corrections "officers" are, err.... (hate to need to point it out) not police or first responders by your own Wiki-Definition. They are Jailers. No need to carry a gun as a Jailer, either on duty or off. Just another citizen once you leave work, right? But (insert bluster and union rules here and "I am more trained than you are" here). OK, we agree: You are special. We get it. Go to Gunsite lately? Many of us can run rings around most LEO's on the range and in knowlage of the law as it related to CCW and self defense. Let's leverage this to our benefit.


And really, I do not mean to poke fun at you. It's low hanging fruit, and for rhetorical purposes only. Beer provided by my should we ever meet. Really.


Remind me to edit that Wikipedia article too... it's just whatever anyone wants to write, hardly a definitive "definition"...



BTW, as a CCW holder I have more standing in law (a license) than a volunteer firefighter or a bystander with an AED at the scene of a heart attack.



Willie

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Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 23, 2013 at 09:12 AM.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:08 AM   #6
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Corrections Cop,

I am not a lifeguard. Nobody had heartburn when I swam out into an alligator infested, weed-choked, nasty lake to help a woman who swam too far out in pursuit of her dog.

I am not a firefighter. Nobody complained when a friend and I alerted people that their house was on fire, helped them exit the house, and assisted one of the residents in putting a garden hose on the fire as we awaited firefighters. (I keep fire extinguishers in my vehicles, my bedroom, and my kitchen, too.)

I am not an EMT. Nobody complained when I and several other non-EMTs pulled over at the site of a vehicle rollover on I-95, and helped stop the bleeding on an 8 year old boy until deputies and an ambulance arrived. (We made good use of the first aid kit I keep in my truck; I have them in all my vehicles except for my motorcycle, which has no storage capability.)

I am not an animal control officer. Nobody has complained when I have stopped dog fights, or helped inexperienced dog owners regain control of their enthusiastic, large-breed dogs.

I am not a tow truck driver. Nobody has ever complained when I have helped them out with changing a tire, or jump starting their car (I keep a jumpstarter/light/battery unit in my vehicle, along with cables), or helping them dig out from snow or sand (I keep an entrenching tool in my truck and in the trunk of my wife's car).

So, if I wasn't a "First Responder," what exactly was I?
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:14 AM   #7
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Excellent idea

We have watched the media invent words that demonize good citizens. They name our guns for us. Why can't we characterize ourselves as what we want? I think it is accurate as well.

I can see those on the fence buying into the logic. It isn't about bringing down EMS or other 1st responders. It is a phrase that embraces what we believe to be true. That we are protecting ourselves those around us.

We see articles almost everyday that fits this description.

Maybe this will be a tipping point. I would like to See the NRA promote such as they have more of a voice for us than anyone else

This too could be associated with our history. If you think about it. The militia were 1st responders.

I don't remember, "Listen my children, and you shall here, of the midnight ride of EMS".


Sorry for the EMS dig, I didn't want to p*ss off the marines.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:14 AM   #8
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I would suggest to you that your statement is situationally dependent.

If police are on scene, in most cases they will not want such assistance, you are right.

OTOH, I am pretty sure most cops would prefer that, if able, a person stop a rape or a child abduction rather than just wait to give a police report. Most police chiefs will not say that, of course, but some sheriffs and most patrol cops and detectives that I know will.

There is the school of thought that one should only be a good witness.

There are scenarios where being a good witness would be my choice.

Rapes, child abductions, assaults on the elderly... those do not fall into that category.

Last edited by Tom Servo; February 23, 2013 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Removed reference to deleted material
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:15 AM   #9
Willie Sutton
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"So, if I wasn't a "First Responder," what exactly was I?"


You're just a civilian. You don't get to wear a neat costume.

Thus:

He would be more noble and heroic than you in any of the same circumstances.


See, as an "amateur" you would be LUCKY if you succeeded.

As a "trained professional" he would be selfless in his service to the "citizens"


It's all in the language, guys... control it and you control the debate.






Willie


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 23, 2013 at 09:27 AM.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:18 AM   #10
MLeake
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Technically, Willie, I am not a "civilian." I am a retired Navy officer, and therefore subject to recall.

But I am not a cop.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:22 AM   #11
Willie Sutton
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^^ So you have stated previously.

The average cop would disagree, they not seeming to understand the dfference between civil and military authority. It absolutely drives me insane when law enforcement describes non-LEOs as "Civilians".

We (you and I) have been thru this discussion before. We are in complete agreement.

My use of the term is purely rhetorical in nature for the purpose of the argument.


Willie

.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 23, 2013 at 09:39 AM.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:23 AM   #12
L2R
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Hope the anti's aren't reading this

We can't even come up with a positive name for ourselves without debate.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:23 AM   #13
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No problem.

I do have a problem with the LEO use of "civilian," particularly as a pejorative.
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Old February 23, 2013, 09:30 AM   #14
Willie Sutton
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^^

We all should be outraged when the term is used.


There is only one place where Civil and Military (IE: "non-civil) authority are the same, and that's in the White House. Below that level everyone ought to clearly understand the difference. Especially the police, who are most definitively civilians *just like me*, and who should have no privileges not allowed to their civil peers (us), who employ them as our (get ready for this) "Civil Employees" or to be more precise "Civil Servants".

Key word... servant. One who serves. Serves us. Not the other way around.


Back to the discussion: To win the undecided popular jury of our peers in the trial of 2nd Amendment Rights in the Court of Public Opinion, use the right language and the right argument. What I moot is just one more tool for the thinking debater to use in the closing speech. Make the sale. Convince one housewife. Win the battle to win the war. The war is an assault on belief. Sharpen up the debating skills, you need them now more than you need a good front site picture and a surprise break of the trigger. I WILL need to debate this today. I will not likely need to emply my sidearm. I am skilled with both tools. Be prepared as well.


Willie


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 23, 2013 at 09:38 AM.
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Old February 23, 2013, 10:01 AM   #15
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Don't try to pick an established 'name'

The term first responder is well established to represent the first people that respond to an emergency that typically have advanced training in medical delivery to an injured victim. I would recommend you think of another term to acknowledge your presence at an emergency if your goal is to offer security. Maybe you could consider armed citizen or something to the like.

Don't get your feelings hurt if the first thing that happens once the real first responders show up if you are asked to leave.
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Old February 23, 2013, 10:03 AM   #16
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Quote:
First Responders are by law, LEO, EMS, and Fire. If the SH&$ hits the fan they don't want un trained Joe Blow with a CCW in the mix. A first responder is someone trained to give basic life support. Just becuase you have a CCW doesnt mean you are a First Responder, unless you have the training.
So, if I witness a violent crime such as a rape, child abduction, assault, or attempted murder in progress and there is no LEO to be found, the "first responders" would prefer that I stand by and do nothing? We're not talking about "helping" the cops once they get there, but rather about taking action when the cops aren't there.

As to basic life support, the training for such isn't exactly black majic or anything. A small fee and 4-5 hours of your time will get you AHA BLS certified. Really, the information and skills learned in a BLS course (I've taken such a course twice) are such that everyone should take the course regardless of profession or their choices of whether or not to CC.
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Old February 23, 2013, 10:22 AM   #17
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I'm not sure when I actually used that phrase. That said, we don't want to turn this into an us vs. them thread.

Personally, I disagree with the idea that I'm a "first responder." I have not been deputized by local law enforcement and do not have powers of arrest. Nor am I licensed to render medical aid.

Does this mean that I wouldn't do what I could to help in a crisis? No. But I'm not taking on the mantle, lest I walk a fine line between vigilance and vigilantism.
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Old February 23, 2013, 11:12 AM   #18
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Quote:
First Responders are by law, LEO, EMS, and Fire.
That is why we have a bill of rights and constitution, so people with some power from the government can simply MAKE UP LAWS out of their own heads -- as you just did.

First responder is a generic term with no legal meaning. It can be used by anyone and there is no controlling law. You are talking about "certified first responder" which is term derived from good Samaritan laws shielding certain classes from medial suits.

Like most certified first responders I am not in law enforcement, EMS or fire, I have a CFR (not CPS, but CFR) certification because it was a SMALL part of a lifeguard course many years go. In my jurisdiction you need to take an eight hour one day course and a test. that's it. It is CPR and knowing how to stabilize a bone or not move a potential spinal injury, and some othe rfirst aid.

You can get a CFR at 16 and it is way less rigorous than lifeguard training

virtually all four million nurses int eh US are CFR and so nurse on her way home who stops on the highway to help with an accident victim is a "Certified first responder" and cant be sued for under standard malpractice, the same goes for many rent-a-cops and lifeguards with some training in medical emergey care.

the huge majority of certified first have no law enforcement capacity and are not armed. they don't deal with interdicting crime in any way shape or form. Most are nurses.

Quote:
You're just a civilian.
Most certified first responders are "just civilians."

Police, other LEO as well as fire and EMS are not obligated expose themselves to any danger of harm in defense of a civilian. there elected unions sued to establish that and it has ben established.

We all have known cops. I have several in my family. Lots of cops are good guys. Some are certainly brave and conscientious. But they are not any less likely to commit crimes than the general public., and a lot of them are just civil servants looking to do the least at any task.

Quote:
Does this mean that I wouldn't do what I could to help in a crisis? No. But I'm not taking on the mantle, lest I walk a fine line between vigilance and vigilantism
You can be a first responder in that sense. A certified first responder ONLY refers to classes of people indemnified from civil suits arising from improper first aide based on a specific type of first aid training course and other general knowledge and skill having nothing to do with crime or law enforcement or crime
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Old February 23, 2013, 12:13 PM   #19
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Even credentialed "First Responders" don't always respond.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...bay&id=8161285

After the person drowned, at least the trained professionals allowed a 20-year old woman "civilian" to swim out and recover the body.

Of course the problem was "we need a bigger budget!"
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Old February 23, 2013, 12:19 PM   #20
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I'm a first responder

I went to a week-long school out of town to get this training and have participated in several test runs and actual emergencies. So I know what you're talking about. We arrive first on he scene and do what we know how to do until the more highly trained and equipped responders arrive. Here we are identified as a Community Emergency Response Team. Does that make me better than you? No, it just makes me more useful.

I also have most of the training to be an Incident Commander and that took a lot more than a week. It just makes me more useful.
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Old February 23, 2013, 12:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
BTW, as a CCW holder I have more standing in law (a license) than a volunteer firefighter ...
That's not actually true, at least not in Washington state (and, I presume but have not studied, in other states as well).

In WA, if you want to be a volunteer firefighter, you have to meet a boatload of legal requirements and get a handful of certifications. I know this because four of my immediate family members are volunteers for our rural fire district. The state keeps adding to the requirements, and every time it does, the district loses a few more volunteers. You'd almost think the goal was to get rid of all volunteers and make all firefighters union-dues-paying employees or something.

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Old February 23, 2013, 12:42 PM   #22
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MLeake I think they would call you a "good samaritan"

Willie I don't think we really need a name for ourselves, we just need to keep doing what we can do trained or not trained.
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Old February 23, 2013, 12:51 PM   #23
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I think the proper word remains "Citizen"

Until degraded to today's level of "protected entitlement consumer" it was once the most sublime of all words.

It can be again....
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Old February 23, 2013, 01:33 PM   #24
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Our 'First Responders', our LEO are nothing more than civilians paid to do full time what we do given the chance. If the idea that this 'advanced training' is what gives them the title, then I would love to go take the training.

They should have no more powers, they should have no more rights. Even when it comes to arrest.

We did not create an 'us versus them'. They did. By their own actions. By placing themselves above us 'civilians'.
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Old February 23, 2013, 02:03 PM   #25
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I don't think first responder is a correct term...

Typically here, those folks who witness an accident, or crime, are called "initial responder(s)" since they just acted on what they just initially witnessed, each from his/her own perspective, and with his/own level of training/experience do something of some level to respond and give aid. This could be any number of people... Its the group that is there, and either choose to, or not to, intervene. I repeatedly have known these people to also be called "good Samaritan)s)" also.

A first responder here, is one who is tasked with being in the group of the first units dispatched to an incident. Secondary response are those second dispatched, etc, going in to the mutual aid and availability for the needed response.

I am confused on the need for a term to win the public opinion over, instead of solidarity and proper actions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Sutton
Stress:

First Response

Service to Others

Training

Volunteerism

Good Citizenship

What you do for them

etc.
This is a start to a long slippery slope, at least in my mind... The ones that stick out to me the most.

Service to others - How is this defined? I know several folks who have a CCW but not give an owl hoot about helping others, and others that are very willing to help others. There is doubtful a way to prove a level of service to others.

Training - If your going to sell a level of training to the general public, their would not only have to be a minimum standard, but also various levels after that which are mutually recognized and accepted. This would be a large issue.

Volunteerism - Same as service to others above.

What you do for them - Ok, how is it going to be proved what a person with a ccw does for them? If someone with a ccw steps in and stops a violent death by shooting the suspect, you may have earned some credibility from the victim, but yet you just lost the family of the suspect.
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