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Old March 3, 2013, 11:50 AM   #1
TheDutchman19
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Frustrated about the flyer

I have been working up a load my my new Savage 12-VLP 308. I have had some success, but now I'm haunted by the flyer. At the moment 4 out of 5 shots are shooting a 3/8" group. The flyer pushes the group to as much as 1". I am shooting through a chronograph. My deviation between the 4 shots is 15-20 fps. The flyer is 50 plus deviation.

Yesterday I went out with the intention to look for shooter error. I shoot from a steel bench, bolted to concrete. I made sure that my siting position was consistent and that the sling lug was not hitting the bag during recoil. I waited 2 to 3 minutes between shots. My results were the same.

I am using Lapua brass, Winchester WLR primers, IMR 4064. I had tried 168 and 175 grain Nosler Custom Competition and Sierra Matchkings. Due to the flier, I haven't honed in on the better bullet yet.

Can a powder my gun doesn't like cause the flyer? I was able to get some Vit-N550. I thought about trying that. I have been weighing each charge, but I have a Quick Measure in transit.

Match primers are also on the list, but they are hard to come by for the moment.

I am using a full length Type S sizing die. I have thought about changing up the bushing one size, but when I seat the bullets the tension is consistent.

I am staying objective, but I am getting frustrated.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? Help!
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Old March 3, 2013, 12:55 PM   #2
603Country
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What I don't have is the guaranteed answer to your problem. There are those on the forum that'll tell you that there are no flyers - that the bullet went where the case, load, and bullet teamed up to hit. That may actually be true, but unfortunately that one bullet is still outside of where you wanted it to be. Some years ago I had a similar problem with my 220 Swift and Norma brass, and based on something I had read I started marking the cases that were associated with the flyers. If those particular cases, in subsequent shooting, continued their evil ways, they were tossed on the ground at the shooting range. That did lead to improvements in grouping.

I'll assume that you are doing an OCD type prep on the cases, and sorting by weight. And I'll assume that the flyer isn't always the 5th shot, which would indicate that the problem was operator error caused by pressure on yourself to make the next shot go into that small group. That last shot into a great group is always the toughest for me.
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Old March 3, 2013, 01:03 PM   #3
Mal H
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603country brings up a good point - where in the string of 5 does the flyer come? Is it most always the first, the last,or does it happen at random in the string of shots?

Is the flyer deviation in fps slower or faster than the norm?
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Old March 3, 2013, 01:35 PM   #4
TheDutchman19
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The flyer is completely random. There doesn't seem to be a pattern.

The flyer also meters 50 plus fps higher.

It's also worth mentioning is that the case from the flyer doesn't look any different when looking for pressure signs.
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Old March 3, 2013, 04:51 PM   #5
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If powder charges are within a 3/10ths grain spread and all from the same lot, primers all from the same lot, cases sized the same way, same bullets all seat with the same force, then I don't think its the ammo. Unless someone peed in your powder jug before it was sold to you.

That leaves the rifle and the shooter to check out.

Is the rifle assembled correctly and all stock screws torqued up correctly?

You can check out the shooter by replacing him with another shooter then see if the results are the same.
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Old March 3, 2013, 05:00 PM   #6
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Nott trying to be a smart alec,but try shooting five one shot groups.My reasoning..You are looking for an elusive variable.It will be easier to isolate.

A possibility,any chance that one flier sat in a warm chamber a little longer than the others?

If you have a definite connection between the 50 fps and the flier,look for a variable that can cause 50 fps.
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Old March 3, 2013, 08:14 PM   #7
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Regarding that flier that went out 50 fps different than the rest. In elevation, that's about 1/10th inch difference in drop at 100 yards.

I've shot .308's in team matches at 1000 yards and had to keep the loaded round in a hot barrel for up to 2 minutes. My rule of thumb for .308 Win. ammo heating up at 1000 was for every 20 seconds sitting in the hot barrel, come down 1/4 MOA on the sights. That's about the vertical difference a 7 fps increase in muzzle velocity makes for the .308 at 1000. If a round stayed in that hot barrel for a minute, it would shoot about 3/4 MOA higher. At 100 yards, it would be only .0125" higher.
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Old March 3, 2013, 08:20 PM   #8
603Country
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Just go ahead and mark the 'bad' cases and see if the flyer is repetitive (with that case). Only takes a moment and it might, with luck, tell you something.
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Old March 3, 2013, 09:52 PM   #9
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OK, 603, you get the trophy for "best idea" to solve this issue. It'll be shipped tomorrow to your front door.
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Old March 4, 2013, 01:00 AM   #10
TheDutchman19
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Question

Bart B got me thinking, so I started to dig into the gun. Here is a photo of my chamber throat. Notice there is chatter marks at the base of the shoulder? It resembles a lock nut. Is that normal?

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Old March 4, 2013, 07:30 PM   #11
dahermit
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Quote:
My deviation between the 4 shots is 15-20 fps. The flyer is 50 plus deviation.
As suggested, mark your cases. Then weight the cases from the five shot group to eliminate an overly heavy case. If all else fails, you can try the bench rest competition technique of loading at the bench with pre-measured powder, and hand tools, using a single case for the five shots.
It would not hurt to weight the bullets and mike them.
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Old March 4, 2013, 08:14 PM   #12
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And here's another suggestion, don't get hung up on "flyers",,,,, get hung up on practice.
All these replies are noteworthy of course, however when it comes to shooting groups, it isn't necessarily wrote in stone that every bullet flies into the same hole,,, but thats what makes us come back and try...
Good luck and don't give up man.
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Old March 4, 2013, 09:02 PM   #13
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You're probably loading on the ragged edge of the good shooting charge window. Try a couple of groups up and down by maybe .2 grains and see if you don't get better consistancy.
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Old March 4, 2013, 09:36 PM   #14
Bart B.
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Dutchman, I don't think those marks in the chamber hurt anything except that chamber's ability to place well in a chamber beauty contest. As long as they don't leave marks on fired cases, they're OK, I guess. Too hard to tell with 100% credibility; with only that 2 dimensional view.
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Old March 5, 2013, 07:48 AM   #15
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could it be that the cases that give you 50fps more velocity are just a tad looser on neck tension ?
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Old March 5, 2013, 09:25 AM   #16
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you haven't mentioned what powder charge(s) you were using...

If you use a non-optimal charge, you can get the very symptoms you're mentioning. The fact that the flyer is turning in a faster velocity--to me--says the rifle and you may be totally innocent...

The locations of the nodes--normally--are going to be (Winchester brass)... 44.5 grains IMR 4064 with the 168's... and 43.5 grains with the 175's. For Lake City or heavier cases (even heavier lots of Winchester), use .5 grains less. Most commercial Winchester brass is going to weigh about 158 to 160 grains without the primer...

If you try one or both of those charges and still have issues, then that'll be a pencil-chewer...

I agree that marking the case could help show you what is going on, but if the powder charge is deep into an accuracy node, an odd case should not throw the shot out of the group.

With a good load recipe, you should be able to shoot reasonably tight groups with charges up to 1% high of the center, and 1% low...

here is an OCW test target I shot while developing a load using Varget and the 200 grain Sierra Matchking for my .308 win.


This target is shot "round robin" with each charge weight getting a shot on its own square, then move to the next square... and so on. Repeat three times, and you see some very useful data on the target...

Notice if I had used 41.8 to 42.2 grains, I'd get flyers. A ladder test WILL NOT reveal the location of the scatter node, where flyers will occur... but if you shoot an OCW test, you'll see what's really likely going on.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

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Last edited by Dan Newberry; March 5, 2013 at 09:30 AM.
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Old March 5, 2013, 09:55 AM   #17
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The idea has already been posted but just to expand on the method: Shoot a complete session with one case. Neck size it, load it and shoot it, keep notes on the strings of 5 data. Try .2 at a time change in powder; keep notes in sets of 5. A set of good cases is a treasure indeed. I shot a whole season with the same 5, 6mm PPC cases. In sporters (which are all I play with now days) I have found that without annealing and neck turning there will be flyers, it’s the way it is no matter who makes the brass.

Also, the processes involved in shooting are difficult to control with true consistency. You should dry fire a string of 5 shots. The way you do this is the same as shooting the actual rounds by going through every step. The goal here is to see where the crosshairs are on the target once the firing pin has dropped. Because, that’s where the bullet is headed based on your input.
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Old March 5, 2013, 10:07 AM   #18
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Normally, with a flyer, I think a person has a sizing runout problem with their FL sizing die. This is caused by the die, press or locknut. Usually, locking the locknut with a case in the die pushing up lightly and locking the expander locknuts with slight downward pressure will keep RO under 0.002"(80% under 0.0015" on my RCBS Case Master.


BUT

Your case seems powder related because you have matching cases, etc and you have found a flyer with a 50 fps deviation..nice find! That just feels like your powder charge is burning inconsistent. I'm assuming this is a worked up load and the best load this component combo will do for you. If not, a slight increase in powder charge my get you away from this inconsistency.

I would try a new powder Alliant or Hodgdon.
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Old March 5, 2013, 12:15 PM   #19
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Like your OCW test. That's the way I do it.

Last edited by BuckRub; March 5, 2013 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Because
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Old March 5, 2013, 12:25 PM   #20
TheDutchman19
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I'm not loading 200 grain. It was just used as an example.

I am working with 168 and 175 gn. 175 is the primary bullet I am trying to load for, but giving the current availability of loading supplies, I started from scratch with a 168 gn which I had.
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Old March 5, 2013, 02:24 PM   #21
Don P
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Quote:
I am staying objective, but I am getting frustrated.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? Help!
Just a suggestion, stop shooting and the flyers will stop which will eleviate the frustration
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Old March 5, 2013, 02:35 PM   #22
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I believe when I stop shooting the frustration gets worse
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Old March 5, 2013, 02:35 PM   #23
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Dang... I think this is probably the first thread I've read where Bart B. hasn't said something like "5 rounds isn't enough to be definitive" and suggested 10-15 rounds per charge weight. FWIW, I've been using Dan's OCW method with great success, but with 10 rounds per charge weight, because Bart yells at me when I don't.
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Old March 5, 2013, 02:47 PM   #24
TheDutchman19
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Just a suggestion, stop shooting and the flyers will stop which will elevate the frustration
I occurred to me that lure to this hobby is the challenge. I guessing that once I can get this gun shooting bug holes, it will be time for a new gun.
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Old March 5, 2013, 03:07 PM   #25
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IMR4064 isn't exactly a hard powder to light off. Try changing primers. Wolf large rifle is a good choice, Fed GMM is also a good choice, both primers are known for producing low velocity spreads and mild ignition.

Also try 41.8gr of 4064 with the 175gr Custom Comp bullet.

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