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Old February 20, 2013, 02:40 PM   #1
Wyoredman
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Ring apears on .220 Swift brass?

I have a Winchester Model 70 Heavy Varmint .220 Swift that makes a shiney ring around the case head on every round fired from the gun. I am perplexed!

At first, I thought that the cases were starting to seperate, then after asking on the reloading forum, I checked them with a bent paperclip and could feel no "ridge" inside the brass. So, I cut some cases lenghtwise with a saw in order to inspect them. No sign of case head seperation.

Finally, I went and bought some brand spankin' new Hornady factory ammo. after inspecting each case, I shot them. Yep, a bright shiney ring around the case head! Right where you would expect to see signs of case seperation. I shot the whole box of new factory ammo, every one has a ring after being shot in my gun.

Finally, I was starting to think that the chamber has too much head space. I purchased a Hornady cartridge headspace gague, measured the factory ammo, fired it and measured the factory cases. 0.003" differance.

After resizing, I measured the case again, shoulder mover back 0.002" (0.001") longer than factory.

It doesn't appear that the gun's chamber is too long. The brass looks good when cut in half and inspected, and factory ammo gets the same ring when fired for the first time.

What is going on? This is the only rifle I have owned that does this to the brass!

Help me out here! Thanks.
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Old February 20, 2013, 03:23 PM   #2
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Probably just a sharp edge on the chamber mouth. Don't worry about it.
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Old February 20, 2013, 03:31 PM   #3
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Thanks Scortch, I was wondering about that. Would some emry cloth polishing be bad for the gun?
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Old February 20, 2013, 05:01 PM   #4
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If it were my gun, I would not do any alteration/polishing until I got a whole lot more input. Close up pictures of what you are calling a "ring" would help. From your description, it could either be the normal expansion ring of all fired rifle cartridges, or something more serious. Once you remove metal, even polishing, it cannot be undone.

One of the things that occurred to me was that the .220 Swift is a semi-rimed cartridge. As such I would neck size only (which I do anyway with most of my guns), and fire, and see if the ring is indeed caused by stretching of the brass.

One of the first questions you should ask is; Does the .220 Swift head space on the semi-rim or the shoulder of the case.
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Old February 20, 2013, 05:24 PM   #5
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Pictures soon to follow. When I get home, I wil take several. I am pretty sure that the Swift Headspaces off the shoulder, but correct me if I am wrong.
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Old February 20, 2013, 07:03 PM   #6
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With my 220 Swift, I get best accuracy with Partially Resized cases. The case has enough taper that a partial resize won't force the shoulder forward - causing difficult chambering. It works just fine and shoots just great - at least mine does.
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Old February 20, 2013, 08:16 PM   #7
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I don't recall ever chambering anything for the .220 Swift, but IIRC, it is a semi-rimmed case so it should be supported (headspaced) on the rim, not on the shoulder. That doesn't make much difference as far as that bright ring goes. I am willing to make a small wager that the ring is the result of excess headspace, but there is probably not enough case stretching yet to detect it inside the case.

Since, as noted above, the Swift headspaces on the rim, neck sizing will keep cases from stretching but won't correct the basic headspace problem. Eventually, cases will back out enough to lose chamber support and there will be problems.

I would like to see pictures.

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Old February 20, 2013, 09:14 PM   #8
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If it headspaces on the semi-rim I've been mistaken for decades. Pretty sure it does not headspace on the rim. And even if it did, the case would fireform and could then be necksized.
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Old February 20, 2013, 09:37 PM   #9
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Here are pictures:

From left to right.

Factory unfired; Factory fired once; reload (4 times); reload (4 times) cut open



ETA: How can they headspace off the rim when the rim is completely enclosed inthe bolt face?
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Old February 20, 2013, 11:49 PM   #10
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http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...20%20Swift.pdf

They just like saying head space.

There is no case head protrusion on the 220 Swift chamber, the 220 Swift with a rim and the belted mag case present a complication that has been with us forever, keeping up with two thoughts at the same time.

My opinion, the ring should not be there, I will assume the Model 70 is an older rifle as in pre-64.

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Old February 20, 2013, 11:54 PM   #11
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Looks like incipient head separation to me.

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Old February 21, 2013, 12:15 AM   #12
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and fire form, they like to say that a lot, chamber a round pull the trigger and now they are a fire former....with shine rings abound the case in front of the web.

Me? I am a case former, I form first then fire, difference, I cut down on all that case travel. I want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the face of the bolt.

Then there is the taper, the 30/40 Krag, 30/30 and the 303 British have rims, they have large tapers, they have short case life when there is a total disregard for the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber.

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Old February 21, 2013, 12:16 AM   #13
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F. Guffy, The gun was manufactured in 1994.

James K., What would cause the once fired factory loaded brass to start seperation? All factory loaded brands come out of the gun looking like that after being fired.
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Old February 21, 2013, 12:17 AM   #14
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The best thing that ever happened to a chamber with a large taper is P.O Ackely.
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Old February 21, 2013, 12:36 AM   #15
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Posts: 877 F. Guffy, The gun was manufactured in 1994.

James K., What would cause the once fired factory loaded brass to start separation? All factory loaded brands come out of the gun looking like that after being fired.
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F. Guffey
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Posts: 1,446 and fire form, they like to say that a lot, chamber a round pull the trigger and now they are a fire former....with shine rings abound the case in front of the web.

Me? I am a case former, I form first then fire, difference, I cut down on all that case travel. I want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the face of the bolt.

Then there is the taper, the 30/40 Krag, 30/30 and the 303 British have rims, they have large tapers, they have short case life when there is a total disregard for the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber.

F. Guffey




“total disregard for the length of the chamber”, From the big inning the purpose of the rim was secure the case to the rear, most of what happened in front of of the rim was to be filled with the case, then the belt, same thing. The firing pin strikes the primer, somehow the case gets driven forward leaving space between the case head and bolt face, then, pressure builds, the case locks onto the chamber, then, the case head is driven back into the bolt face. All that travel is a little rough on the case because the case body is locked onto the chamber, if the case head takes up the slack between the case head and bolt face the case must stretch between the case body and in front of the case web.

As opposed to other chamber designs .

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; February 21, 2013 at 12:40 AM. Reason: move chamber after removing the s
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Old February 21, 2013, 09:40 AM   #16
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Since I don't have any 6mm Navy brass, I'm not able to form cases as FGuffey apparently does. I'm limited to fire forming and either neck sizing or partial resizing from there. In that specific rifle (my 220), I bought a neck die, but found over time that I got better accuracy with partial resizing, which works well with tapered cases.

Over 30 years with that rifle and two barrels and no case head separations. I assume that it boils down to the fact that I don't FL resize and set the shoulder back too far.

As for Wyoredman's question, if he's cut into cases and found no sign of case wall thinning at the base, I'd put it down to a little first firing case stretch. Tapered cases do tend to do that, which is why PO Ackley (as FGuffey mentioned) was always 'improving' cases and cartriges by reducing case body taper. Just neck size em from here and you should be fine, though occasionally, if you shoot em hot, you'll need to push that shoulder back a bit.
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Old February 21, 2013, 10:10 AM   #17
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603, Did you take a look at the pictures?

Quote:
I'd put it down to a little first firing case stretch
You think the cases are stretching a bit during the first firing, not something wrong with the chamber?

As I said before, the fired case is only 0.003" longer than the factory unfired loaded round. (according to my Hornady Cartridge Headspace Gague)

I have my die set to move the shoulder back 0.002" durring sizing (FL die). Should I scrap that die and buy a NS die?

I keep thinking that something isn't adding up, and the rifle is messing with the cases....
Thanks all!
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Old February 21, 2013, 11:10 AM   #18
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Quote:
I'd put it down to a little first firing case stretch

You think the cases are stretching a bit during the first firing, not something wrong with the chamber?

As I said before, the fired case is only 0.003" longer than the factory unfired loaded round. (according to my Hornady Cartridge Headspace Gage)

I have my die set to move the shoulder back 0.002" during sizing (FL die). Should I scrap that die and buy a NS die?

I keep thinking that something isn't adding up, and the rifle is messing with the cases....
Thanks all!
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“As I said before, the fired case is only 0.003" longer than the factory unfired loaded round”

That is a nice, tidy little bundle, a spread of .003” from new out of the box to fired then sized.....from the shoulder back to the head of the case. Sounds great, back to keeping up with more than one thought at a time.

“Should I scrap that die and buy a NS die?” I don’t, I believe you should get all the use out of the full length sizer die, the versatile die. You have the part where you are moving the shoulder back .002” down pat, the method you are using to adjust the die alludes me, HOW DO YOU DO THAT? You are assuming the shoulder requires moving back. Back to the part where I determine the length of the chamber from the head of the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face, again, I apply the ‘LEAVER POLICY’ When I find the shoulder moved out (formed), I apply the leaver policy, ‘I leaver where I founder.

Case head protrusion, you do not have. Case head support? Support is located anywhere the case touches the chamber.Your case is supported from the ring forward, the case head behind the ring is not touching the chamber.

“According to your Hornady head space gage?”, I have a Hornady style gage, I called it a comparator, I make comparators, I make chamber length gages, not go, no and field reject gages, I make gages in thousandths. That is 14 gages between minimum length to field reject, back to I want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder back to the bolt face.

Sizing a case, raising the die off the shell holder will prevent the die from sizing the case when the ram is raised, starts with neck sizing, eventually full length sizing is accomplished, back to my presses, my dies, both have threads. I control the length of the case from the shoulder of the case back to the head of the case, knowing when to stop sizing is like knowing where to hammer.

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Old February 21, 2013, 11:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
I have my die set to move the shoulder back 0.002" during sizing (FL die). Should I scrap that die and buy a NS die?
Try this test: Fire a factory load in your rifle. Carefully extract the case about half way. Push the case (via the bolt, with the extractor still in contact with the case), back into the chamber and turn the bolt down until it locks. Did the case re-enter the chamber without difficulty? If it did, then why are you setting the shoulder back .002? The only reason to set the shoulder back is to get the hand loaded round to chamber...if it chambers, there is no reason to set the shoulder back. On a rimmed, semi-rimmed case, only the first time the case is fired it head spaces off the rim. After that, it should be treated as if it rimless (head space off the shoulder). If you continue to use the rim for head space by setting the shoulder back, you invite premature head separation.
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Old February 21, 2013, 11:32 AM   #20
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Guffey,

Here is how I used my Hornady "comparator":

Measured unfired, new factory case in the "comparator" installed on my calliper.

Measured fired case the same way. Fired case is 0.003" longer to shoulder datum than it was before fireing.

Screwed FL die into press until it touched fired case, then began adjusting die down and measuring case length to shoulder datum with "comparator" until the case was 0.002" shorter. Set lock ring on die at this point.

My question to you, as you seem to know these things, is how do I make a "chamber length gague"? Please be specific so as I can benefit from your knowledge. If I lived nearby, I would bring the rifle to you and you could explain it to me, but no such luck.

Also, this still hasn't answered my original question about why this individual rifle is doing this to my brass! Are you suggesting that my chamber is oversized? I am a simple man and need simple, straight forward answers. Thanks.
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Old February 21, 2013, 11:33 AM   #21
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dahermit,

Excellent explination. Thank you very much!
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Old February 21, 2013, 04:23 PM   #22
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Back to the ring,here is what I suspect.

Typically,after chambering,a chamfer or radiused lead in is put on the sharp corner of the chamber mouth to keep that corner from scraping the brass as it enters the chamber.

If this was done with a tool that is dull,improperly ground,or set up wrong,instead of a good clean cut,the steel is deformed...mushed aside,That would actually form a high ring of steel at the chamber mouth.

A good feeler tool is a mechanical pencil with a thin lead.Hang the lead out a bit and drag it over the edge of the chamber mouth.Do you get any catch?
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Old February 21, 2013, 06:20 PM   #23
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dahermit covered it pretty well. As for case sizing, you can use your FL die and partial resize. Set the bottom of the die about 1/8 of an inch above the top of the shell holder when the ram is raised. It'll size most of, but not all of, the neck. Try it. Works fine for me, but only on tapered cases. Doesn't work worth a darn on 223, but works on 270 and 220. That's what I'm doing right now with my 220, though I don't know if I settled on exactly the 1/8 inch gap.
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Old February 21, 2013, 06:28 PM   #24
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Thanks, Gents.
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Old February 22, 2013, 11:19 AM   #25
F. Guffey
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HiBC
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Posts: 2,933 Back to the ring,here is what I suspect.

Typically,after chambering,a chamfer or radiused lead in is put on the sharp corner of the chamber mouth to keep that corner from scraping the brass as it enters the chamber.

If this was done with a tool that is dull,improperly ground,or set up wrong,instead of a good clean cut,the steel is deformed...mushed aside,That would actually form a high ring of steel at the chamber mouth.

A good feeler tool is a mechanical pencil with a thin lead.Hang the lead out a bit and drag it over the edge of the chamber mouth.Do you get any catch?




HiBC, that would be it, problem, wrong chamber, the mouth of the chamber is ‘just in front of the rim’ as the link furnished from SAAMI illustrates. The ring on Wyoreman’s case is (wild guestimate) .250”++ ahead of the chamber mouth. Again, his chamber does not have a protruding case head.

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Posts: 1,550 dahermit covered it pretty well. As for case sizing, you can use your FL die and partial resize. Set the bottom of the die about 1/8 of an inch above the top of the shell holder when the ram is raised. It'll size most of, but not all of, the neck. Try it. Works fine for me, but only on tapered cases. Doesn't work worth a darn on 223, but works on 270 and 220. That's what I'm doing right now with my 220, though I don't know if I settled on exactly the 1/8 inch gap.


1/8” off the shell holder added to the deck height of the shell holder is 1/4” or .250” meaning .250” of the case from the head of the case up is not being sized, meaning he would be using the versatile full length sizer die as a neck sizer die, because? the die will be backed off the shoulder of the case .125”. That leaves sizing a case, according to reloaders to two choices, ‘BUMP .002” or back the die off .125”.

AGAIN: Reloading is about keeping up with more thoughts than one at a time. REDDING makes shell holders, Redding makes a pack of 5 shell holders called Competition Shell holders, purchase a set of REDDING competition shell holders and become a competition shell holder reloader. I believe the Redding Competition shell holder are nice, I do not need them, I do not believe they are necessary, at $40.00 plus $6.00+ for a standard shell holder the reloader would have close to $50.00 invested in shell holders for each shell holder, then consider the most common/necessary shell holders????? A reloader’s investment in reloading for shell holder could be $300.00.

Back to Redding and keeping up with options outside of the recommended +.002” bump and backed off .125”, Redding offers 5 options between .000 and + .010 meaning Redding shell holders come with 5 options from .000 in increments of .002” up to .010”. That gives the reloader a +.002”, +.004", +.006”, +.008” and a +.010” option. The option gives the reloader an opportunity to off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case if they know the length of the chamber, I can only guess that is the reason Redding named the + side of shell holders Competition shell holders.

Point? Redding offers 5 options from .000” to .010”, reloaders recommend 2 between .000 (.002”) and .125” that is 8 options between .000 and 1.000”, Redding, if extended would be 500 options from .000” to 1.000”. I can duplicate anything Redding offers with a $11.00 investment. One better than Redding, they offer 5 options between .000 and .010”, with an investment I have 10 options between .000 and .010” when adjusting the die off the shell holder. One more time, I adjust the die off the shell holder with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage. After making the adjustment I can verify the adjustment with a thicker and or larger shim/leaf, with the humblest of tools the reloader can verify, transfer and use a standard, the big seller, the feeler gage can be used with every shell holder for the same investment of $11.00 +/-a few.

For the same $11.00 investment I can size cases for short chambers, for chambers like the 30/06 I can reduce the length of the case .012”, that is .012” shorter than a minimum length/full length sized case or .017” shorter than a go-gage length chamber, that is 17 options between go-gage length and a chamber that is .012” shorter than a minimum length/full length sized case.

With an exception, I purchased a set of #6 Redding shell holders at the Big Town gun show for $5.00, I checked the shell holder deck height, #2 and #10 were correct, the three in the middle are off by .001” each. Problem? No, I can correct an error with a feeler gage if I was that obsessive.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; February 22, 2013 at 11:25 AM. Reason: change a c to a k
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