The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 22, 2013, 11:51 PM   #26
Ben Towe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Anywho, I think I might take a whack at this and test it against my M1A with 147gr FMJs.
I thought I might do the same and see how it held up to .338 Win. Mag and 62 grain steel penetrators out of the 5.56.
__________________
'Merica: Back to back World War Champs
Ben Towe is offline  
Old February 23, 2013, 11:45 AM   #27
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
Another issue that the DoD had with Dragon Skin, IIRC, is that because it does not incorporate soft armor, it does not protect against blasts as much and because of the way the "scales" were stacked, it did very poorly against small arms fired from below the wearer as they would be for a helicopter crewman or tower guard.

I plan to test with 7.62x51mm too, eventually but I don't have very high expectations.
Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old February 23, 2013, 01:37 PM   #28
Aberration
Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2012
Posts: 35
You need a better material between the hard plates. IMO something more preferable like Kevlar. But going hillbilly style, maybe just use a tarp. Then your glue over it and to hold the layers.
Aberration is offline  
Old February 23, 2013, 01:44 PM   #29
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,050
Aberration,

Our armor incorporates a hard plate backed up by an unattached soft pad of Kevlar behind it closest to the body.
__________________
NCO of Marines, 3rd Award Expert Rifle, 236 KD Range
D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! OEF 21JUN-20SEP2011
REV. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 10:38 AM   #30
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
Aberration, this arrangement actually worked remarkably well. I have some scrap Kevlar on hand but I'd like to keep this something that you can make from materials found at the big box stores. Herculiner is surprisingly tough and does an excellent job of holding everything together. The next iteration will be two tiles and an HDPE cutting board backer with everything held together with Herc inside and out.
Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 11:29 AM   #31
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
New version is two tiles with a cutting board backer in tactical red. I cut it down to 10"x12" and cut the corners. I actually just measured my Level III steel plate for the dimensions of the corner cuts. Turns out they took 2.5" from each corner so that leaves 5" across the top edge. Those Herculiner cans are a real pain to open. Thought I could make it happen with the Dillo but I had to take after it with a screwdriver. They actually glue the lids down.







Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 05:32 PM   #32
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
Quote:
That and QC problems got the armor booted from the military although it showed/shows great promise.
This is incorrect, a problem with wiki is that there is no real control over who posts what. That weakness is a strength too, but you gota know it's not all accurate.

The Army never adopted Dragon Skin. Some soldiers used personally purchased Dragon Skin usually cause their family bought and sent it wanting the best for their loved ones. This is understandable but unfortunately a waste.

Keep some things in mind about military equipment. It isn't enough to just buy a suit and wear it. That armor has to take some abuse, get wet, drug around, dropped and stomped on. Pieces break or wear and need replacing. If you are wearing issued equipment then replacements are right there in Supply. You just go take the bad one and swap it for a good one. If you need to there could be a good one on that dead guy over there. How do you get replacements of something that isn't issue? BTW, I still was issued my other Armor, now I have to keep track of two suites of armor, one takes up limited space in my room or in my vehicle. If I have to catch a flight with all my gear I have to carry a second suite. How well am I trained in maintaning my Dragon Skin? If you put some thought into it you will see all the problems keep adding up.

The Army told the soldiers they couldn't use any Body Armor that wasn't issued to them and they did it for these types of reasons along with the questionable performance issues.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 08:51 PM   #33
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,846
Dragon Skin was about ten times the price of the competitors. Who thinks DOD was going to adopt that under any circumstances?

I don't think multiple hit tests show the effectiveness for any round very well. I doubt that X39 would have done so much damage if it hit first, but the armor was significantly damaged by the 223.
I know there were material costs to the test and that is why you probably did it like that, but it dosn't show us much. Your doing it for fun, so you need to maximize your fun though.
I am not sure this is great for body armor, but maybe in a pinch for a vehicle.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; February 27, 2013 at 08:58 PM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 10:31 AM   #34
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
You're definitely right about the cost vs. fun ratio.

The third round of 7.62x39mm was definitely stopped and I think the first two were also, but the corner of the plate had bent back enough to damage the paper bag I was using to detect whether fragments made it through. Even after taking one round of .223 and three rounds of 7.62x39mm, the plate stopped ten rounds of .40 S&W. I'd say that's pretty good for stuff you can buy at Walmart. I prefer my purpose built steel, NIJ rated Level III plates but I think this shows real promise for field expedient body armor. Depending on how future tests go, I'm tempted to make up a few sets to keep in the truck and to hand out to friends and family if SHTF.
Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 11:11 PM   #35
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,846
I misinterpreted what I saw on the video. I thought you fired one round of X39, it had a clean entry and was deflected up to the left traveling between the ceramic plates or something. I figured they must have been pretty well shattered before it hit for that to happen. If it was three rounds in top left that is a bit different.
One thing the military looks at is multiple hits on a single location, although I don't think the standard for it is very high. I wonder if enough ceramic shards remain in an area to fragment the bullet on a second hit.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 11:23 PM   #36
wooly booger
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2013
Location: on the edge
Posts: 143
interesting, i bet you would get even better performance if you bedded fiberglass, carbon fiber or kevlar scrim cloth in the herculiner between plates. Something to think about.
wooly booger is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 11:25 PM   #37
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,577
Quote:
This is incorrect, a problem with wiki is that there is no real control over who posts what. That weakness is a strength too, but you gota know it's not all accurate.

The Army never adopted Dragon Skin.
LOL, Wiki is correct. The military had the armor. No claim was made that they adopted it, but they had it, tested it, it failed, and they booted it. The problem was QC and Dragon Skin could not demonstrate that they could maintain QC...plus as noted, it was hugely expensive.

Quote:
The third round of 7.62x39mm was definitely stopped and I think the first two were also, but the corner of the plate had bent back enough to damage the paper bag I was using to detect whether fragments made it through
Still, impressive performance given the materials, simplicity of the design, etc.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 11:58 PM   #38
SundownRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 508
I like the concept, but not for body armor. I was thinking this would make an excellent backstop for a personal indoor range.
__________________
" Of every One-Hundred men, Ten shouldn't even be there, Eighty are nothing but targets, Nine are real fighters... We are lucky to have them...They make the battle. Ah, but the One, One of them is a Warrior... and He will bring the others back."
- Heraclitus (circa 500 BC)
SundownRider is offline  
Old March 1, 2013, 10:08 AM   #39
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
johnwilliamson062, once I settle on a design, I'd like to test it with more powerful cartridges like 7.62x51mm and with multiple hits near the same spot. Ultimately, that doesn't matter as much to me because if it can stop two or three rounds of an intermediate cartridge, that's pretty useful. To paraphrase a response to Gecko45: If plan A is taking multiple hits to the chest from a high power rifle, maybe it's time for a plan B.

wooly booger, I was thinking of using fiberglass and I probably will if the next test goes poorly. I have some Kevlar that I could use but I'd like the design to be something that anybody can get, anywhere, under almost any conditions. When you're roaming the nuclear wastes of New Vegas and you come across some grade V floor tile in a filing cabinet in the Robco building, you'll know what to do. Kevlar is readily available and fairly inexpensive on eBay but you don't normally find it in Wally World or Home Depot.

ETA: So when I pulled the "plate" off the grocery bag I had it sitting on to dry, the bed liner peeled right off the cutting board. I roughed it up with a wire wheel and reapplied the bed liner.

Last edited by Andrew Wiggin; March 1, 2013 at 07:00 PM.
Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old March 4, 2013, 02:13 AM   #40
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,846
Yeah, one round is a pretty nice buffer to have.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old March 4, 2013, 12:07 PM   #41
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
One bullet hole in your body is infinitely worse than zero bullet holes.

As demonstrated, it can withstand more than one impact, but even if it could only take one hit, I think it's still pretty impressive for the price.
Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old March 4, 2013, 07:04 PM   #42
Cy4ka
Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Posts: 39
What you need to get is some of that spiderweb silk armor. They're trying to put spider DNA in goats so they milk them and silk comes out. They then plan to spin it and weave it like para aramid kevlar.
Cy4ka is offline  
Old March 5, 2013, 10:42 AM   #43
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
That's just a little outside my lane.
Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old March 11, 2013, 09:44 PM   #44
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
"Mk II" test:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BORLLkLpG6U


Cliff's notes: two tiles with cutting board and bed liner defeated by 7.62x39mm. Stops one round of .45 ACP and defeated by the second.
Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old March 12, 2013, 06:47 AM   #45
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,412
It's amazing what a difference that extra layer made in your first test.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old March 12, 2013, 11:00 AM   #46
tulsamal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Location: Vinita, OK
Posts: 2,473
If we move away from thinking of this as "personal body armor," maybe I do see a use. When thinking about TEOTWAWKI and "bugging in," I've thought about hardening a few spots in my house. It's a 1947 frame house with really thick walls that predate sheetrock. The interior walls are really tough to cut into but obviously they won't stop a bullet. And the house has lots of windows. I've considered putting steel plates around a few windows, inside the walls. This would create a shooting position where you couldn't be taken out by rounds zipping through the wall.

Steel is heavy and difficult to work with inside a wood frame. But something like this tile idea... I could see making that work. It's not as perfect as fitted steel shutters like Rawles used in Patriots but far better than nothing....

Gregg
tulsamal is offline  
Old March 13, 2013, 12:05 PM   #47
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
You'll want a way to hold the fragments together so they're good for more than one shot. Bed liner obviously works but it would get expensive quickly if you were trying to cover a large area.
Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old April 6, 2013, 08:14 AM   #48
Andrew Wiggin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Posts: 227
Hillbilly body armor Mk IV:










Three tiles, with a layer of bed liner and woven fiberglass fabric on the back side of each layer. I also made one with the same configuration but only two tiles, which I think will be good for multiple pistol hits or maybe one .223/5.56mm. I was very conservative with the bed liner.
Andrew Wiggin is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 12:52 AM   #49
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,050
I'm gonna bring this one back as I am contemplating trying this myself, just picked up a plate carrier from a buddy who left the Corps last month. Andrew, a couple of questions for you:

First, where did you get the PEI V tiles?

Cost per 12"x12" tile?

Have you tested the Mk IV plates yet?
__________________
NCO of Marines, 3rd Award Expert Rifle, 236 KD Range
D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! OEF 21JUN-20SEP2011
REV. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 04:41 PM   #50
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
One thing the military looks at is multiple hits on a single location, although I don't think the standard for it is very high.
There is no such thing for body armor. Same plate takes two hits. One COM the other offset.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12755 seconds with 7 queries