Hillbilly body armor test - Page 2

Ben Towe · February 23, 2013, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Anywho, I think I might take a whack at this and test it against my M1A with 147gr FMJs.

I thought I might do the same and see how it held up to .338 Win. Mag and 62 grain steel penetrators out of the 5.56.

Andrew Wiggin · February 23, 2013, 12:45 PM

Another issue that the DoD had with Dragon Skin, IIRC, is that because it does not incorporate soft armor, it does not protect against blasts as much and because of the way the "scales" were stacked, it did very poorly against small arms fired from below the wearer as they would be for a helicopter crewman or tower guard.

I plan to test with 7.62x51mm too, eventually but I don't have very high expectations.

Aberration · February 23, 2013, 02:37 PM

You need a better material between the hard plates. IMO something more preferable like Kevlar. But going hillbilly style, maybe just use a tarp. Then your glue over it and to hold the layers.

Tucker 1371 · February 23, 2013, 02:44 PM

Aberration,

Our armor incorporates a hard plate backed up by an unattached soft pad of Kevlar behind it closest to the body.

Andrew Wiggin · February 24, 2013, 11:38 AM

Aberration, this arrangement actually worked remarkably well. I have some scrap Kevlar on hand but I'd like to keep this something that you can make from materials found at the big box stores. Herculiner is surprisingly tough and does an excellent job of holding everything together. The next iteration will be two tiles and an HDPE cutting board backer with everything held together with Herc inside and out.

Andrew Wiggin · February 26, 2013, 12:29 PM

New version is two tiles with a cutting board backer in tactical red. I cut it down to 10"x12" and cut the corners. I actually just measured my Level III steel plate for the dimensions of the corner cuts. Turns out they took 2.5" from each corner so that leaves 5" across the top edge. Those Herculiner cans are a real pain to open. Thought I could make it happen with the Dillo but I had to take after it with a screwdriver. They actually glue the lids down.

lcpiper · February 26, 2013, 06:32 PM

Quote:

That and QC problems got the armor booted from the military although it showed/shows great promise.

This is incorrect, a problem with wiki is that there is no real control over who posts what. That weakness is a strength too, but you gota know it's not all accurate.

The Army never adopted Dragon Skin. Some soldiers used personally purchased Dragon Skin usually cause their family bought and sent it wanting the best for their loved ones. This is understandable but unfortunately a waste.

Keep some things in mind about military equipment. It isn't enough to just buy a suit and wear it. That armor has to take some abuse, get wet, drug around, dropped and stomped on. Pieces break or wear and need replacing. If you are wearing issued equipment then replacements are right there in Supply. You just go take the bad one and swap it for a good one. If you need to there could be a good one on that dead guy over there. How do you get replacements of something that isn't issue? BTW, I still was issued my other Armor, now I have to keep track of two suites of armor, one takes up limited space in my room or in my vehicle. If I have to catch a flight with all my gear I have to carry a second suite. How well am I trained in maintaning my Dragon Skin? If you put some thought into it you will see all the problems keep adding up.

The Army told the soldiers they couldn't use any Body Armor that wasn't issued to them and they did it for these types of reasons along with the questionable performance issues.

johnwilliamson062 · February 27, 2013, 09:51 PM

Dragon Skin was about ten times the price of the competitors. Who thinks DOD was going to adopt that under any circumstances?

I don't think multiple hit tests show the effectiveness for any round very well. I doubt that X39 would have done so much damage if it hit first, but the armor was significantly damaged by the 223.
I know there were material costs to the test and that is why you probably did it like that, but it dosn't show us much. Your doing it for fun, so you need to maximize your fun though.
I am not sure this is great for body armor, but maybe in a pinch for a vehicle.

Andrew Wiggin · February 28, 2013, 11:31 AM

You're definitely right about the cost vs. fun ratio.

The third round of 7.62x39mm was definitely stopped and I think the first two were also, but the corner of the plate had bent back enough to damage the paper bag I was using to detect whether fragments made it through. Even after taking one round of .223 and three rounds of 7.62x39mm, the plate stopped ten rounds of .40 S&W. I'd say that's pretty good for stuff you can buy at Walmart. I prefer my purpose built steel, NIJ rated Level III plates but I think this shows real promise for field expedient body armor. Depending on how future tests go, I'm tempted to make up a few sets to keep in the truck and to hand out to friends and family if SHTF.

johnwilliamson062 · March 1, 2013, 12:11 AM

I misinterpreted what I saw on the video. I thought you fired one round of X39, it had a clean entry and was deflected up to the left traveling between the ceramic plates or something. I figured they must have been pretty well shattered before it hit for that to happen. If it was three rounds in top left that is a bit different.
One thing the military looks at is multiple hits on a single location, although I don't think the standard for it is very high. I wonder if enough ceramic shards remain in an area to fragment the bullet on a second hit.

wooly booger · March 1, 2013, 12:23 AM

interesting, i bet you would get even better performance if you bedded fiberglass, carbon fiber or kevlar scrim cloth in the herculiner between plates. Something to think about.

Double Naught Spy · March 1, 2013, 12:25 AM

Quote:

This is incorrect, a problem with wiki is that there is no real control over who posts what. That weakness is a strength too, but you gota know it's not all accurate.

The Army never adopted Dragon Skin.

LOL, Wiki is correct. The military had the armor. No claim was made that they adopted it, but they had it, tested it, it failed, and they booted it. The problem was QC and Dragon Skin could not demonstrate that they could maintain QC...plus as noted, it was hugely expensive.

Quote:

The third round of 7.62x39mm was definitely stopped and I think the first two were also, but the corner of the plate had bent back enough to damage the paper bag I was using to detect whether fragments made it through

Still, impressive performance given the materials, simplicity of the design, etc.

SundownRider · March 1, 2013, 12:58 AM

I like the concept, but not for body armor. I was thinking this would make an excellent backstop for a personal indoor range.

Andrew Wiggin · March 1, 2013, 11:08 AM

johnwilliamson062, once I settle on a design, I'd like to test it with more powerful cartridges like 7.62x51mm and with multiple hits near the same spot. Ultimately, that doesn't matter as much to me because if it can stop two or three rounds of an intermediate cartridge, that's pretty useful. To paraphrase a response to Gecko45: If plan A is taking multiple hits to the chest from a high power rifle, maybe it's time for a plan B.

wooly booger, I was thinking of using fiberglass and I probably will if the next test goes poorly. I have some Kevlar that I could use but I'd like the design to be something that anybody can get, anywhere, under almost any conditions. When you're roaming the nuclear wastes of New Vegas and you come across some grade V floor tile in a filing cabinet in the Robco building, you'll know what to do. Kevlar is readily available and fairly inexpensive on eBay but you don't normally find it in Wally World or Home Depot.

ETA: So when I pulled the "plate" off the grocery bag I had it sitting on to dry, the bed liner peeled right off the cutting board. I roughed it up with a wire wheel and reapplied the bed liner.

johnwilliamson062 · March 4, 2013, 03:13 AM

Yeah, one round is a pretty nice buffer to have.

Andrew Wiggin · March 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

One bullet hole in your body is infinitely worse than zero bullet holes.

As demonstrated, it can withstand more than one impact, but even if it could only take one hit, I think it's still pretty impressive for the price.

Cy4ka · March 4, 2013, 08:04 PM

What you need to get is some of that spiderweb silk armor. They're trying to put spider DNA in goats so they milk them and silk comes out. They then plan to spin it and weave it like para aramid kevlar.

Andrew Wiggin · March 5, 2013, 11:42 AM

That's just a little outside my lane.

Andrew Wiggin · March 11, 2013, 10:44 PM

"Mk II" test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BORLLkLpG6U

Cliff's notes: two tiles with cutting board and bed liner defeated by 7.62x39mm. Stops one round of .45 ACP and defeated by the second.

2damnold4this · March 12, 2013, 07:47 AM

It's amazing what a difference that extra layer made in your first test.

tulsamal · March 12, 2013, 12:00 PM

If we move away from thinking of this as "personal body armor," maybe I do see a use. When thinking about TEOTWAWKI and "bugging in," I've thought about hardening a few spots in my house. It's a 1947 frame house with really thick walls that predate sheetrock. The interior walls are really tough to cut into but obviously they won't stop a bullet. And the house has lots of windows. I've considered putting steel plates around a few windows, inside the walls. This would create a shooting position where you couldn't be taken out by rounds zipping through the wall.

Steel is heavy and difficult to work with inside a wood frame. But something like this tile idea... I could see making that work. It's not as perfect as fitted steel shutters like Rawles used in Patriots but far better than nothing....

Gregg

Andrew Wiggin · March 13, 2013, 01:05 PM

You'll want a way to hold the fragments together so they're good for more than one shot. Bed liner obviously works but it would get expensive quickly if you were trying to cover a large area.

Andrew Wiggin · April 6, 2013, 09:14 AM

Hillbilly body armor Mk IV:

Three tiles, with a layer of bed liner and woven fiberglass fabric on the back side of each layer. I also made one with the same configuration but only two tiles, which I think will be good for multiple pistol hits or maybe one .223/5.56mm. I was very conservative with the bed liner.

February 23, 2013, 02:44 PM	#29
Tucker 1371 Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: East TN Posts: 1,687	Aberration, Our armor incorporates a hard plate backed up by an unattached soft pad of Kevlar behind it closest to the body. __________________ LCpl Williams, Evan T. USMC-R, 02-08-2010 ~ D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! OEF 21JUN-20SEP2011 REV. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

February 27, 2013, 09:51 PM	#33
johnwilliamson062 Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 6,108	Dragon Skin was about ten times the price of the competitors. Who thinks DOD was going to adopt that under any circumstances? I don't think multiple hit tests show the effectiveness for any round very well. I doubt that X39 would have done so much damage if it hit first, but the armor was significantly damaged by the 223. I know there were material costs to the test and that is why you probably did it like that, but it dosn't show us much. Your doing it for fun, so you need to maximize your fun though. I am not sure this is great for body armor, but maybe in a pinch for a vehicle. __________________ $0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. Of course, you could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation I was feeling pretty good, then I looked around and realized I am not swimming or on fire. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; February 27, 2013 at 09:58 PM.

March 1, 2013, 12:11 AM	#35
johnwilliamson062 Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 6,108	I misinterpreted what I saw on the video. I thought you fired one round of X39, it had a clean entry and was deflected up to the left traveling between the ceramic plates or something. I figured they must have been pretty well shattered before it hit for that to happen. If it was three rounds in top left that is a bit different. One thing the military looks at is multiple hits on a single location, although I don't think the standard for it is very high. I wonder if enough ceramic shards remain in an area to fragment the bullet on a second hit. __________________ $0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. Of course, you could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation I was feeling pretty good, then I looked around and realized I am not swimming or on fire.

March 1, 2013, 12:58 AM	#38
SundownRider Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 505	I like the concept, but not for body armor. I was thinking this would make an excellent backstop for a personal indoor range. __________________ " Of every One-Hundred men, Ten shouldn't even be there, Eighty are nothing but targets, Nine are real fighters... We are lucky to have them...They make the battle. Ah, but the One, One of them is a Warrior... and He will bring the others back." - Heraclitus (circa 500 BC)

March 1, 2013, 11:08 AM	#39
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	johnwilliamson062, once I settle on a design, I'd like to test it with more powerful cartridges like 7.62x51mm and with multiple hits near the same spot. Ultimately, that doesn't matter as much to me because if it can stop two or three rounds of an intermediate cartridge, that's pretty useful. To paraphrase a response to Gecko45: If plan A is taking multiple hits to the chest from a high power rifle, maybe it's time for a plan B. wooly booger, I was thinking of using fiberglass and I probably will if the next test goes poorly. I have some Kevlar that I could use but I'd like the design to be something that anybody can get, anywhere, under almost any conditions. When you're roaming the nuclear wastes of New Vegas and you come across some grade V floor tile in a filing cabinet in the Robco building, you'll know what to do. Kevlar is readily available and fairly inexpensive on eBay but you don't normally find it in Wally World or Home Depot. ETA: So when I pulled the "plate" off the grocery bag I had it sitting on to dry, the bed liner peeled right off the cutting board. I roughed it up with a wire wheel and reapplied the bed liner. Last edited by Andrew Wiggin; March 1, 2013 at 08:00 PM.

February 23, 2013, 12:45 PM	#27
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	Another issue that the DoD had with Dragon Skin, IIRC, is that because it does not incorporate soft armor, it does not protect against blasts as much and because of the way the "scales" were stacked, it did very poorly against small arms fired from below the wearer as they would be for a helicopter crewman or tower guard. I plan to test with 7.62x51mm too, eventually but I don't have very high expectations.

February 23, 2013, 02:37 PM	#28
Aberration Member Join Date: July 14, 2012 Posts: 30	You need a better material between the hard plates. IMO something more preferable like Kevlar. But going hillbilly style, maybe just use a tarp. Then your glue over it and to hold the layers.

February 24, 2013, 11:38 AM	#30
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	Aberration, this arrangement actually worked remarkably well. I have some scrap Kevlar on hand but I'd like to keep this something that you can make from materials found at the big box stores. Herculiner is surprisingly tough and does an excellent job of holding everything together. The next iteration will be two tiles and an HDPE cutting board backer with everything held together with Herc inside and out.

February 26, 2013, 12:29 PM	#31
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	New version is two tiles with a cutting board backer in tactical red. I cut it down to 10"x12" and cut the corners. I actually just measured my Level III steel plate for the dimensions of the corner cuts. Turns out they took 2.5" from each corner so that leaves 5" across the top edge. Those Herculiner cans are a real pain to open. Thought I could make it happen with the Dillo but I had to take after it with a screwdriver. They actually glue the lids down.

February 28, 2013, 11:31 AM	#34
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	You're definitely right about the cost vs. fun ratio. The third round of 7.62x39mm was definitely stopped and I think the first two were also, but the corner of the plate had bent back enough to damage the paper bag I was using to detect whether fragments made it through. Even after taking one round of .223 and three rounds of 7.62x39mm, the plate stopped ten rounds of .40 S&W. I'd say that's pretty good for stuff you can buy at Walmart. I prefer my purpose built steel, NIJ rated Level III plates but I think this shows real promise for field expedient body armor. Depending on how future tests go, I'm tempted to make up a few sets to keep in the truck and to hand out to friends and family if SHTF.

March 1, 2013, 12:23 AM	#36
wooly booger Junior member Join Date: February 22, 2013 Location: on the edge Posts: 143	interesting, i bet you would get even better performance if you bedded fiberglass, carbon fiber or kevlar scrim cloth in the herculiner between plates. Something to think about.

March 4, 2013, 03:13 AM	#40
johnwilliamson062 Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 6,108	Yeah, one round is a pretty nice buffer to have. __________________ $0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. Of course, you could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation I was feeling pretty good, then I looked around and realized I am not swimming or on fire.

March 4, 2013, 01:07 PM	#41
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	One bullet hole in your body is infinitely worse than zero bullet holes. As demonstrated, it can withstand more than one impact, but even if it could only take one hit, I think it's still pretty impressive for the price.

March 4, 2013, 08:04 PM	#42
Cy4ka Junior Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Posts: 12	What you need to get is some of that spiderweb silk armor. They're trying to put spider DNA in goats so they milk them and silk comes out. They then plan to spin it and weave it like para aramid kevlar.

March 5, 2013, 11:42 AM	#43
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	That's just a little outside my lane.

March 11, 2013, 10:44 PM	#44
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	"Mk II" test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BORLLkLpG6U Cliff's notes: two tiles with cutting board and bed liner defeated by 7.62x39mm. Stops one round of .45 ACP and defeated by the second.

March 12, 2013, 07:47 AM	#45
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 1,031	It's amazing what a difference that extra layer made in your first test.

March 12, 2013, 12:00 PM	#46
tulsamal Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2004 Location: Vinita, OK Posts: 2,404	If we move away from thinking of this as "personal body armor," maybe I do see a use. When thinking about TEOTWAWKI and "bugging in," I've thought about hardening a few spots in my house. It's a 1947 frame house with really thick walls that predate sheetrock. The interior walls are really tough to cut into but obviously they won't stop a bullet. And the house has lots of windows. I've considered putting steel plates around a few windows, inside the walls. This would create a shooting position where you couldn't be taken out by rounds zipping through the wall. Steel is heavy and difficult to work with inside a wood frame. But something like this tile idea... I could see making that work. It's not as perfect as fitted steel shutters like Rawles used in Patriots but far better than nothing.... Gregg

March 13, 2013, 01:05 PM	#47
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	You'll want a way to hold the fragments together so they're good for more than one shot. Bed liner obviously works but it would get expensive quickly if you were trying to cover a large area.

April 6, 2013, 09:14 AM	#48
Andrew Wiggin Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 51	Hillbilly body armor Mk IV: Three tiles, with a layer of bed liner and woven fiberglass fabric on the back side of each layer. I also made one with the same configuration but only two tiles, which I think will be good for multiple pistol hits or maybe one .223/5.56mm. I was very conservative with the bed liner.