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Old February 17, 2013, 11:03 AM   #1
timn8er
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If you shoot a home intruder...

I asked this question in another thread, & it was a little off topic. So I
decided to post a separate thread. I'm posing this question specifically to
forum members that reside in Oklahoma, but all are welcome to contribute.
You catch someone in your home that has broken in, & they move towards
you. you stand your ground, & shoot them. Hopefully it ends there. The
police arrive. Are you automatically going to be arrested? What if you follow
general principle of not speaking to the police about the incident? This will
pretty much insure that you're "going downtown", won't it? Do you call legal
representation before you call 911?
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Old February 17, 2013, 11:44 AM   #2
balyon85
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Re: If you shoot a home intruder...

If you shot a guy and called a lawyer before calling the police it look pretty bad on you if it ended up in front of 12.
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Old February 17, 2013, 11:47 AM   #3
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I am not sure of how it would work in Oklahoma but here in Utah it would go something like this. A home intruder comes into my home and I shoot him. Once I am certain he is down and not getting up I will call 911 or have one of my family members call. I will make sure I am not holding the firearm when the police arrive. It will be put in a safe place. I fully plan on being cuffed while they sort things out and they will certainly take possession of the firearm used for evidence. An arrest is not likely. After an investigation and a day or two without sleep not knowing if charges are coming, the prosecutor calls to inform me there will no charges filed and the shooting was justified. At least that is the way I hope it would go down.

On a side note 2 weeks ago here in Utah a man came home to find burglars attempting to break into his front door. The burglar had a crowbar in his hand. The man went to his car and grabbed a gun. The burglar then dropped the crowbar and ran. The man fired a "warning shot" in the air(at least that is what he told police). The police caught the suspects. The police returned the next day and arrested the home owner because his life was not being threatened when the shot was fired. I can't remember the exact charges but it is something along the lines of discharging a firearm in city limits.
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Old February 17, 2013, 11:53 AM   #4
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Old February 17, 2013, 01:07 PM   #5
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I would always call 911 first and then immediately call an attorney. This is your right and just basic common sense to protect yourself on all fronts.
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Old February 17, 2013, 01:17 PM   #6
adamc
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You defend your life
You defend your family
You defend your propery

You get arrested & prosecuted


That is just sad, that it has turned this way in America,
Where criminals have more say & rights than you
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Old February 17, 2013, 01:33 PM   #7
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i have read conflicting advice on keeping your mouth shut when the police arrive. One set of people say that you should point out any evidence you think important that you dont want overlooked. I read that what the first responding police think is usually what the prosecutor ends up thinking.

Idk what to do, but I think i would do the above.
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Old February 17, 2013, 01:52 PM   #8
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I would probably just say "He tried to attack me and I had to defend myself" You don't want to say too much before you talk to a lawyer, but give em something for the incident report. So when the prosecutor sees it he immediately throws you on the "victim" side of the case.

If the report just says "We found a dead guy int he living room and the homeowner wouldn't tell us anything until his lawyer got here" makes things look kinda suspicious.

I would definately point out any evidence that HELPS your case. If the intruder has a bunch of your stuff in his pocket, make sure the cops see it. If the intruder had a weapon and it slid under the couch when he "slipped and fell" point it out too.
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Old February 17, 2013, 01:52 PM   #9
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Call 911, then an attorney. He will advise you as to what to say and do. If the firearm was fired in the city limits, you will be taken into custody if for no other reason than the discharge. Once everything has gone to court and you are found not at fault and only defending yourself, usually all charges will be cleared and your weapon returned to you. BTW.....be sure to get a receipt for the weapon when they take it. Makes it a lot easier to recover.
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Old February 17, 2013, 01:57 PM   #10
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Here is an absolutely excellent article about using deadly force to protect yourself. It comes from Marty Hayes, the founder of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network and one of America's leading use of force experts.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...ayes-SDLaw.pdf

Here's an excerpt to get you started, but you really need to read the whole thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Hayes in _What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know...

When a legitimate case of self defense (as opposed to a claim of self defense that is offered purely as a legal strategy) comes before the court, it can become pretty expensive, not only in dollars, but also in time and psychological and sociological impacts. For example, if you become the subject of your local newspaper’s headline news, your neighbors, your kids’ friends and even your professional contacts will likely pass judgment long before a jury does. Your kids may have to face accusations from their playmates that their father or mother is a killer, business associates may avoid working with you, and your neighbors may voice hurtful, ignorant opinions about the actions you took to survive. You might even lose your job because it is pretty hard to work if you are locked up in jail for murder if you cannot raise bail money. Do you think that losing your job and facing mounting legal bills might disrupt your family life, too?

These are only some of the reasons gun owners must understand when it is justifiable to use deadly force in self defense, as well as learning what to expect from the legal system if they are left with no viable alternatives and must shoot an attacker.
The booklet goes on to explain the circumstances under which deadly force can be legally justified, what happens immediately after a shooting, what you should say (and what you must not say!) to the officers when they arrive on scene, and what happens at each step throughout the judicial process. It's a good read & an important one.

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Old February 17, 2013, 02:05 PM   #11
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamc
You defend your life
You defend your family
You defend your propery

You get arrested & prosecuted


That is just sad, that it has turned this way in America,
Where criminals have more say & rights than you
Actually, it's been that way for hundreds of years, although you don't necessarily get prosecuted. It all depends on exactly what happened and how it happened.
  1. Let's start with the basic legal reality that our society takes a dim view of the use of force and/or intentionally hurting or killing another human. In every State the use of lethal force and/or intentionally hurting or killing another human is, prima facie (on its face) a crime of one sort or another.

    1. However, for hundreds of years our law has recognized that there are some circumstances in which such an intentional act of violence against another human might be legally justified.

    2. Exactly what would be necessary to establish that violence against someone else was justified will depend on (1) the applicable law where the event takes place; and (2) exactly what happened and how it happened.

  2. If you have thus used violence against another person, your actions will be investigated as a crime, because on the surface that's what it is.

    1. Sometimes there will be sufficient evidence concerning what happened and how it happened readily apparent to the police for the police and/or prosecutor to quickly conclude that your actions were justified. If that's the case, you will be quickly exonerated of criminal responsibility, although in many States you might have to still deal with a civil suit.

    2. If the evidence is not clear, you may well be arrested and perhaps even charged with a criminal offense. If that happens you will need to affirmatively assert that you were defending yourself and put forth evidence that you at least prima facie satisfied the applicable standard justifying your act of violence. This is all discussed in greater detail here.

  3. Of course, if your use of force against another human took place in your home, as you postulate, your justification for your use of violence could be more readily apparent or easier to establish -- maybe.

    1. Again, it still depends on what happened and how it happened. For example, was the person you shot a strange, an acquaintance, a friend, a business associate or relative? Did the person you shot forcibly break into your home or was he invited? Was the contact tumultuous from the beginning, or did things begin peaceably and turn violent, how and why?

    2. In the case of a stranger forcibly breaking into your home, your justification for the use of lethal force would probably be obvious. The laws of most States provide some useful protections for someone attacked in his home, which protections make it easier and a more certain matter for your acts to be found justified.

    3. It could however be another matter to establish your justification if you have to use force against someone you invited into your home in a social context which later turns violent.

Good, general overviews of the topic can be found at UseofForce.us and in this booklet by Marty Hayes at the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
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Old February 17, 2013, 02:17 PM   #12
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First as a pastor, . . .

Second as a "practical" person, . . .

And, third, as somewhat of a humanitarian, . . . I would try my best to see some reason or justification in NOT shooting someone. I don't at all relish being the point person in a shooting investigation.

But that said, . . . "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" is the final line. With no rational other choice, . . . perp WILL ge shot, . . .

I have a "lawyer" number already dialed into my cell phone, . . . select and push the green button. I will call 911, . . . and then I will call the lawyer's office. I will expect good advice from each.

May God bless,
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Old February 17, 2013, 02:24 PM   #13
horatioo
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Quote:
I will call 911, . . . and then I will call the lawyer's office. I will expect good advice from each.
I think you are making a mistake to expect good advice for 911. I would ask your lawyer about that beforehand.
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Old February 17, 2013, 02:41 PM   #14
Glenn E. Meyer
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I don't know about your lawyer - but you will get an answering service in the middle of the night - unless you have a personal number that said lawyer will pick up.

You want to roll emergency services first. For the what if game - the BG is shot and bleeding, it will look great that you were chatting with Perry Mason as they died.

The neighbors might have heard shots and the law is arriving with no knowledge who is the good person. Would you like them to know that?

What if you were shot or hurt? Your family?
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Old February 17, 2013, 03:20 PM   #15
jager.30-06
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i'm a oklahoman

google castle doctrine. LEO told me keep your attention on the perp, he might get back up. call 911 and keep it short and sweet" someone has been shot, here is my adress, i need police and paramedics here now." hang up the phone. if possible ( if the guy is dead, or ran off) put your weapon down, identify yourself as the resident and comply with all orders. remember to communicate clearly " I was in fear of my life. and that of my family". no, you will not automatically be arrested as long as it wasn't your mother-in-law lol, or someone you have any sort of relation to or with. do not tell the 911 operator "i just killed a guy"..."I blew that fools head off" etc etc. remember you are recorded when you call 911 so don't say anything that could be used against you later...he also said advised me not to watch the guy die then call police, u have the obligation to have help on the way, I can't speak for everyone on this forum but I hope to never have to take a mans life, I will if need be but do not relish the idea like some internet badasses. But if he is still a threat, by all means shoot again!
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Old February 17, 2013, 03:22 PM   #16
timn8er
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Thank you everyone for your advice! I appreciate the info.
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Old February 17, 2013, 03:29 PM   #17
jager.30-06
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timn8er, where you from in ok?
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Old February 17, 2013, 05:34 PM   #18
Glenn Dee
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If the police arive, and find a dead guy in your living room.... and he's not the wife or G/F ex, or better new boyfriend... you should be just fine.
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Old February 17, 2013, 05:58 PM   #19
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Glenn Dee,

That's a comforting thought, but it's not necessarily congruent with reality.

For example, here's one: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...th-murder?lite

You have to do the right thing at the time.

You have to avoid doing the wrong things afterward.

You have to present the facts of what happened in the right way so that others will understand the choices you made.

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Old February 17, 2013, 06:08 PM   #20
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Re: If you shoot a home intruder...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pax View Post
Glenn Dee,

That's a comforting thought, but it's not necessarily congruent with reality.

For example, here's one: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...th-murder?lite

You have to do the right thing at the time.

You have to avoid doing the wrong things afterward.

You have to present the facts of what happened in the right way so that others will understand the choices you made.

pax
Not reporting a shooting right away, dragging the bodies from where they were shot and shooting them as they lay wounded on the floor are all bad things to do.
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Old February 17, 2013, 06:08 PM   #21
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I live in Lousiana; the police practically hand out medals of achievement for shooting home intruders.
I know it's not like that in other states.
Texas; shoot first, questions later.
Massachusetts; you better have six witnesses that swear you had no choice.
Check your state laws and the attitude of law enforcement.

Don't forget possible civil suits. Criminals have sued and won damages for being shot while doing their "work".
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Old February 17, 2013, 06:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Not reporting a shooting right away, dragging the bodies from where they were shot and shooting them as they lay wounded on the floor are all bad things to do.
All quite true.

And yet it was a case where

1) The intruders were definitely thieves, possibly worse;

2) The original shooting could have been justifiable;

3) The intruders were not "the wife or G/F ex, or better new boyfriend"; and

4) The homeowner was definitely not "just fine" when the police arrived.

Note, too, that MN has a very strong Castle Doctrine in the black-letter law (which is as far as most people ever look). Their case law is a little more nuanced than the black-letter law would indicate.

In any case, this isn't an area where we can say, "Well, all you have to do is [blah blah blah]."

In order to have a realistic hope of being "just fine" -- no matter who the dead body in your living room belongs to! -- you actually need to know what the law is, in advance; you need to make a conscious attempt to stay on the right side of the law both before and during the event; you have to avoid doing stupid things after the event; and you have to present the facts in such a way that others understand and agree with what you did.

pax
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Old February 17, 2013, 06:37 PM   #23
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Lot of silly comments here.

Since we all don't live in the same neighborhood, a correct answer would be to consult with an attorney in your area.

If you're really concerned you might want to think about getting insurance to cover a defense situation.
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Old February 17, 2013, 06:42 PM   #24
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Yes, 50 states ranging from very pro-RKBA/Castle Doctrine ones to those that are not,plus Federal jurisdiction. +1 to what Kraigwy said.
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Old February 17, 2013, 06:43 PM   #25
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I think it all depends on your locality. And what cops show up at your door.
They used to say here, if you shoot someone in the yard, drag them inside.
But they never said how to explain the large blood trail in the door.
You have to understand that not all cops are that 'observant'.
Frequently in many jurisdictions there is a district attorney hearing and evidence is taken.
Then they evaluate and determine what they will do.
Here, they are grossly overloaded with cases. And they all have political ambitions.
So if you don't have a lot of publicity, you may have no problem.
dc

Oh, yeah, 'scuse me. Consult an attorney in your jurisdiction.
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