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Old January 7, 2013, 02:55 PM   #1
Bob Wright
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What about "printing?"

I read a lot about "printing" on this forum, that is, a concealed handgun showing a bulge in an outer garment.

Speaking only for my state, Tennessee, what does it matter? Tennessee is an open carry state, so concealment is not neccessary for those with carry permits. But for someone who has no permit and his hndgun "prints" anyway, what has happened? If no gun is seen, a gun has not been seen. That bulge could be a cell phone, Eye Pad or small computer. And, even though someone suspects you are carrying, and you are not breaking any other laws, the police have no right to search you on the strength of another's accusation. This has been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.

So, which state, or states, make "printing" exposing?

Incidentally, if a person (in Tennessee) carrying a handgun without a permit uses that handgun in a legitimate self defense, no other crime has occurred. He cannot be charged under the law with carrying. Has occurred in Memphis.

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Old January 7, 2013, 03:10 PM   #2
spacecoast
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Quote:
Incidentally, if a person (in Tennessee) carrying a handgun without a permit uses that handgun in a legitimate self defense, no other crime has occurred. He cannot be charged under the law with carrying. Has occurred in Memphis.
Sounds like the basis for a debate...
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Old January 7, 2013, 03:22 PM   #3
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One miscue in that department:

An older man approached his bank and observed a bank robbery taking place. He went back to his car and retrieved a .357 Magnum revolver, and shot the robber as he was approaching this man, apparently with the idea of carjacking. Memphis police detained the citizen, but he was released wiothout charges.

But, a few days later he was arrested by Federal officers. Appears he was a convicted felon in possession of a firearm.

Unfortunately, some drug dealers slip through on the "self defense" clause. Until they are convicted on drug possession charges, they are as pure as the snow.

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Old January 7, 2013, 04:09 PM   #4
aarondhgraham
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In some states,,,

In some states where you can not carry openly,,,
The "printing" of your concealed handgun is considered "brandishing".

Until just recently that was the case in Oklahoma.

It depended upon the county you were in,,,
And how aggressively the DA's office wanted to be.

In Creek County the DA said he didn't want to see unfounded brandishing charges,,,
But here in Payne county the DA/Sheriff was just the opposite,,,
Concealed meant concealed or face the fine.

It was back-door gun control at it's finest

There were a few counties where the Sheriff's office was ruthless in their application of that rule.

Now that we passed open carry back in November,,,
That point is now irrelevant.

Aarond

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Old January 7, 2013, 05:16 PM   #5
ClydeFrog
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The "hey, so what" arguement....

If you reside in a open carry state & pack a sidearm or 2, then concealment may not be a legal issue. I for one, think a concealed firearm should be just that; CONCEALED.
For an armed professional(sworn LE, EP agent, PI, security, etc) it's just good tradecraft. I've seen a few cops, PIs & armed guards who had guns that printed.
It's unprofessional & shows a lack of skill.
For an armed citizen, a concealed weapon allows the element of surprise. A violent thug or group of thugs(which is more common in urban areas) may try a weapon grab too if you open carry.

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Old January 7, 2013, 05:45 PM   #6
Bob Wright
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Open carry or concealed is not my point. What I'm asking about is how much of a "print" is exposed.

How much of an outline must be visible to be in violation of a concealed carry law? In other words, if one just shows a bulge on the hip, how does anyone know for sure it is a handgun?

What I'm asking is just how much of an outline does it take to get a person arrested? Say a wet Tee shirt as opposed to a corduroy sport coat? Or how far either way?

I reckon my whole point is just to what extent is printing? How is printing defined by law?

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Old January 7, 2013, 10:39 PM   #7
Koda94
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excellent question Bob, the same question came to my mind from a related thread I posted.

I have never read any laws about printing. My take on this is if anyone cannot identify the kind of weapon then your legal even if they know you have one. But that doesn't mean an officer would not intervene if a concerned citizen calls it in and in that officers eyes a gun is a gun and that might be all they need to prove identification of the weapon.

this is why I always critique my technique, and consider my 'interpersonal tactics'

I think the legal answer to this question is a work in progress.
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Old January 8, 2013, 09:37 AM   #8
southjk
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Quote:
How much of an outline must be visible to be in violation of a concealed carry law? In other words, if one just shows a bulge on the hip, how does anyone know for sure it is a handgun?
I think someone in law enforcement will have a good idea whether or not what he is seeing is a gun or not. At the very least he could claim he had probable cause to ask the person if he was carrying. I have a friend that regularly carries and to me when he leans over or turns the right way, that straight edge of the butt of his sig is a sure sign to me that he has it with him. If I can tell from that then an officer would also and I guess in the strict states would consider that printing or brandishing.

I'm glad I'm in Memphis also and don't have to worry about that. Well, I won't when I get my permit. Bob, I've lived here all my life (save 3.5 years) and I don't think I've ever seen anyone open carry. Have you?
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Old January 8, 2013, 05:50 PM   #9
Bob Wright
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Quote:
southjk: Bob, I've lived here all my life (save 3.5 years) and I don't think I've ever seen anyone open carry. Have you?
I have indeed seen several carrying openly. The first that comes to mind was once while at Walgreens, I was behind a elderly black man in the check-out line. This old gent was very thin, a little frail looking and walked with a cane. On his hip was an old Hunter holster with a very old Smith & Wesson K-Frame, looked like it could have been a Victory Model.

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P.S. Look me up some Saturday morning at Range USA. Or some Wednesday at Three Little Pigs BBQ.
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Old January 8, 2013, 05:57 PM   #10
Bob Wright
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And:

Quote:
At the very least he could claim he had probable cause to ask the person if he was carrying.
A police officer who asks you that is on very shaky ground. Suppose he says "no", does that then involve a search? Or what if he says "yes." The officer has asked the person to incriminate himself~ likely the case is thrown out of court.

If he searches that person, because he wasn't sure he was carrying a gun, then unreasonable search and detention.

The point is, if the police have not seen a gun, no gun was present.

And, if his response is due to a complaint of a third person, further thrown out of court.

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Old January 8, 2013, 07:10 PM   #11
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I print all the time. Not obnoxiously though. I find my semi autos with their more rectangular sharp edged handgrips print more than revolvers. Holster style plays a big part too. High ride holsters may keep the barrel of my gun from going too far below my beltline but they also push the handgrip up. Open carry is legal where I live. But not really too popular. I find carrying in an owb holster with a no so tight shirt over my gun to be the best of both worlds. Im not openly carrying, but Im also not having to make the sometimes uncomfortable and unstylish changes to my wardrobe associated with an iwb holster, and loose fitting clothes.
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Old January 9, 2013, 09:03 AM   #12
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I've had concealed carry for about 20 years and take great care to not print.

My standard: I must be able to drink from a fountain, get something out of a shopping cart, or sit on a stool without someone "looking" at me noticing anything, no printing.

That's my standard ^ regardless of the legality of printing.
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Old January 10, 2013, 08:00 AM   #13
CajunBass
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I worry almost as much about "printing" as I do little green men from Mars.

How many times have YOU ever noticed someone elses concealed handgun? Not many I'll bet. What makes you think anyone else pays any more attention to you, than you do to them.
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Old January 10, 2013, 09:30 AM   #14
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I've got an old friend I don't see very often ( BTW... I'm not the huggy kind of guy ) but he is... as a carry guy himself, I find he likes to "hug" people to see if / what / & where they are carrying... if I saw him regularly, that would bother me, but now if I know I'm going to see him, I try to wear something he won't find... I always get that inqusitive look & a "you aren't carrying ???"... at which time I tell him... yep... but you missed it

when I 1st started carrying ( MN open carry is legal, but discouraged ) I was always paranoid that I was printing, but I play bar league Texas Holdem with a bunch of police, lawyers & a judge, regularly, & none of them have ever commented, even when I'm stretched out dealing on a long table...

I wonder, also, how bad you'd have to actually have to "print", to get into trouble, where that is the law... I'd guess that a jacket or shirt riding up, actually exposing a gun would be needed to actually get prosecuted???
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Old January 10, 2013, 12:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
How many times have YOU ever noticed someone elses concealed handgun? Not many I'll bet. What makes you think anyone else pays any more attention to you, than you do to them.
This is one of my many habits which cause my wife to roll her eyes and sigh. If we are sitting down in a public place, watching the people go by, I tend to examine each person and try to "see the gun." Then I point them out to her. And she gives me "that look." So yeah, I agree. The average citizen is totally clueless that you are carrying a gun. Even if it prints along the belt line. They either totally don't see it at all... or they "assume" it is something else. Smart phone, Leatherman, some kind of tools, etc.

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Old January 10, 2013, 12:55 PM   #16
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I agree with idea that "concealed" means nobody can tell that you're carrying, rather than nobody can tell if the gun on your hip is a K-frame or an N-frame.
That doesn't really address the question, but you're getting none of the benefits of either open carry or concealed carry if you are just hiding the brand of the gun that is obviously on your hip.
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Old January 11, 2013, 02:51 AM   #17
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Rick, I think you're looking at the glass half empty in reguard to my "hybrid" mode of carry. I actually think I'm getting the benefits of both concealed and open carry. It would take someone actually looking for a weapon on me to notice that I'm carrying. So I am essentially concealing it. But I can also carry a bigger gun, in a more comfortable manner with (in my opinion) a faster draw. I think the only time the term "concealed" is a black or white/you either are or you're not issue is if it's illegal not to.
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Old January 12, 2013, 07:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
I've got an old friend I don't see very often ( BTW... I'm not the huggy kind of guy ) but he is... as a carry guy himself, I find he likes to "hug" people to see if / what / & where they are carrying...
I knew a guy that bragged about being able to tell where your gun was and in a lot of cases, tell you what kind it was from the same hug technique.

I tested him one time. He found the full size 1911 Mexican carry in my back. But he missed the 8 3/8" bbl Model 29 in the shoulder holster. And the shoulder holster was a big, Bianchi, thick leather thing with all the cross straps and what not. I wasn't making any special attempt to cloak or obscure the Dirty Harry gun.

If you're genuinely concerned about printing, carry a cellphone on the opposite side. If you think someone is looking at you for a weapon, uncover and draw the cellphone and act like you're doing something with it.


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Old January 12, 2013, 09:41 PM   #19
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From what I've seen in 6 years of carrying is that it takes VERY little to conceal from most people. There is an old saying, " you can't see the forest for the trees", that sums up the vast majority of the people who don't carry, about those of us that do carry.
To hide your gun too deeply, really makes your gun about useless in a SD situation. That is unless you are VERY good, and somewhat lucky in reading the situation around you.. (action beats reaction)
My .02 cents and nothing more.
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Old January 13, 2013, 02:23 PM   #20
dajowi
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I started out printing and then moved on to longhand
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Old January 14, 2013, 01:43 PM   #21
Bob Wright
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Spacecoast said:
Quote:
Sounds like the basis for a debate...
No debate. If a shooting is ruled justified by way of self defense, no other charges may be filed.

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Old January 14, 2013, 04:49 PM   #22
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I think the term "printing" was coined by professional, gun-savvy LEOs (i.e. Massad Ayoob) who zealously enforced their local concealed carry laws by coming down on the sloppy carriers. Generally, I think their motivation was well-placed, as a bunch of complaints of brandishing would make concealed carry permits harder to justify politically. The extent to which this actually occurred, relative to the number of lawful permit holders, was never clear to me.

That was before the surge in the last couple of decades that saw many states open up this mode of carry. I am skeptical how important this is to the average LEO on patrol, particularly where open carry is legal.

And with so many people carrying cell phones and the like on their belts, I don't think it is on the average person's radar at all. Besides, they are too busy talking on the cell phone to notice anything anyway. ri
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Old January 14, 2013, 05:03 PM   #23
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I don't worry about printing too much. I do wear clothing that is loose to avoid obvious printing. I have had people tell me (before they knew I carried) that they once thought they saw a bulge under my shirt but did not know what it was or even thought about pressing the issue.

I hug family members that do not know I carry and they have yet to "make" me.
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Old January 14, 2013, 05:56 PM   #24
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In my state, Nevada, the standard for concealed is not "discernible by ordinary observation" which is a little grey as to exactly what that means. However this is also an open carry state, so if it's observable it's ok anyway. I personally have only been concerned about printing or revealing my pistol once, and it was just the other day while trying on shoes. Even though it would have been ok legally, no need for anyone in the store to know or getting asked to leave if its against store policy.

IIRC Florida changed their CCW laws(last year or the year before last I think) to make accidental display ok. Not sure if that meant printing was considered an issue before that or not.
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Old January 14, 2013, 07:05 PM   #25
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Watch this and PLEASE don't give it away in posts that follow, it'll ruin it for others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo


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