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Old March 6, 2013, 05:33 PM   #1
maestro pistolero
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My first bolt gun, 300 win mag, What mods to do?

So I am finally getting around to 'building' a bolt gun. It's for long range precision shooting.

Here's where I am at, so far: I ordered a this Remmy 700

I ordered a 24" Kreiger, stainless 5R barrel. Krieger will take the barrel off the brand new rifle, true the action, thread the barrel and time the brake (probably a Surefire, haven't decided), and install the barrel.

Some questions:
1. Is there anything else that should be done while at Krieger, with lugs for example?

2. Is the Surefire brake effective? (I like the idea of perhaps mounting a can in the future).

3. If I like it, can the SPS stock be modded to accept a detachable mag?

Thanks
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Old March 6, 2013, 05:42 PM   #2
Bart B.
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I suggest having the receiver and bolt face squared up with the tenon threads as well as the locking lugs lapped to 100% contact.

Unless you have to fire more than 3 or 4 shots rapid fire, forget a detachable magazine. Each one typically needs a different zero on the sights and degrades accuracy a bit; they all don't fit exactly the same way in the rifle when put in nor do they stay in one place from shot to shot.
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Old March 6, 2013, 06:01 PM   #3
maestro pistolero
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Great suggestions. I will ask Shay about lapping the lugs and the receiver and getting the bolt face squared up with the tenon threads. Is that something I could trust Krieger to do?

Also, interesting point about magazines and accuracy. I'm a complete noob with the Remmy 700. I would never have imagines that once the bolt takes hold of the round that the magazine could still affect accuracy. I have noticed that the precision shooters at my range feed the rounds one at a time, is that why?
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Old March 6, 2013, 07:39 PM   #4
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pistolero, I've no idea why folks single load detachable magazine rifles except that it's easier than pushing a round into one of those magazines when it's in the rifle. Ask one of them next time you see 'em doing it.

I think you can trust Jack Kreiger to do that. The easiest way is to screw the receiver onto a mandrel that's turned between centers on a lathe, then face off just enough of the receiver to clean it up.
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Old March 6, 2013, 09:41 PM   #5
boattale
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Trigger.
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Old March 6, 2013, 09:55 PM   #6
eldermike
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Fiberglass stock.
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Old March 6, 2013, 10:07 PM   #7
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Definitely lose the SPS stock.

I don't know if you are interested in fluting the barrel.......
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Old March 7, 2013, 01:22 AM   #8
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I would have replaced the stock before the barrel.... so that would be my next recommendation. For a less expensive option, Bell and Carlson Tactical Medalist (style 2) is about $250. After that you can go up to McMillan, McRee, Manners, etc. which range from about $550 up to over $1,000
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Old March 7, 2013, 06:03 AM   #9
maestro pistolero
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Quote:
I would have replaced the stock before the barrel.... so that would be my next recommendation. For a less expensive option, Bell and Carlson Tactical Medalist (style 2) is about $250.
I wanted to get the barrel while they were in stock, otherwise it's an 8-10 month wait. I'm definitely going to change the stock, and do I like that Medalist 2 (AND 1). If I can find a stock that fits me, I would rather do without all the adjustments. It kind of clutters it up. But I also like some of the HS precision choices at about $340.

This site was helpful in seeing the range of choices out there, and the owner, "Stocky", has some good youtube vids talking about the various ways stocks are constructed.

I appreciate the the responses. I have to decide on a brake and the bottom metal as well. Krieger needs to time the brake when they thread the barrel, so that decision will probably be next.
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Old March 7, 2013, 08:47 AM   #10
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I love the 700, however we need to find some way to recycle all the SPS stocks, they are nothing more than shipping brackets for an otherwise great product.

When I saw this thread I thought, the stock is first, next comes the trigger and the very next thing is shoot it and see if it needs anything else.
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Old March 7, 2013, 01:01 PM   #11
maestro pistolero
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I appreciate the fine points made here.

A little context for this project, if I may:

Since the whole purpose for this rifle is extended long-range use, I felt that a heavy, 5R, premium barrel was the way to go. I plan to sell the new barrel and I'm sure someone will get great use out of it. The stock, maybe not so much. But if it can bring even 20 or 30 bucks on eBay, that's (almost) a box of match ammo.

This project will consume my fun-fund for the foreseeable future, but a precision bolt gun has been on my radar for a awhile, and got sidetracked for a couple of years. I want to do it right the first time. It's just no fun for me if I don't have a rifle that far surpasses my own abilities and gives me something to aspire to.

I don't hunt, I shoot paper and steel at silly distances. My best rifle for that purpose right now is an AR10T that groups about an inch if I do my part. It has a Nightforce F1 in a 10 MOA LaRue mount. I'm considering a NFX 5.5-22, zero stop, MLR reticle for this build. But I have time before that decision.

Thanks again for the input. It's very helpful.
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Old March 7, 2013, 01:13 PM   #12
wooly booger
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My priorities would be :

Trigger
Barrel
Glass
Stock

Trigger definitely first.
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Old March 7, 2013, 01:39 PM   #13
Bart B.
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I disagree with Wooly Boogers priorities of what's best done first.

I'd put the barrel first. It has to have a groove diameter about .0003" to .0004" smaller than the bullets used. And have uniform bore/groove/twist numbers from chamber mouth to muzzle. To say nothing of the chamber's throat being reamed dead center on the bore axis. Otherwise, you'll never stay under 1/4 MOA at 100 yards with any bullet. The action's part of the barrel so it's tied for first place on my list. Flat side/bottom ones hold epoxy better than round ones. Some are stiffer than others.

The trigger does not effect how accurate the rifle is. Good ones only make rifles easier to shoot accurately. Most factory triggers can be adjusted quite good enough to work very well. Triggers are in next to last place on my list

Low priced optics with good adjustments will shoot just as well as high priced ones with good adjustments. Most people pay way too much for what they get in telescopic sights as far as what makes them accurate. Scopes are number 2 in my priorities.

Any stock size, shape and half way decent material will all hold the barreled action repeatable enough to shoot like a house afire. Some are better shaped to position the trigger hand best to pull the trigger. There's no difference in the accuracy a solid or laminated wood stock will produce than a synthetic one. Tube gun stocks are the easiest to make barreled actions shoot well; just metal parts screwed together; no epoxy bedding and stock screw torque headaches whatsoever. Stocks are in last place on my list, too.
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Old March 7, 2013, 01:46 PM   #14
maestro pistolero
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Excellent. Makes me glad I went with a trusted barrel maker who is truing the action as well.

Is an aluminum bedding block and free floated barrel an ideal config? I assume that negates the need for resin?

And what do I need to know about recoil lugs. Important to upgrade with this caliber?
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Old March 7, 2013, 01:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
The trigger does not effect how accurate the rifle is. Good ones only make rifles easier to shoot accurately
Everyone likes a good debate...95% of accuracy is the shooter. A good shot can shoot a mediocre rifle. A bad shot can't make a $10,000 rail gun print in one hole.
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Old March 7, 2013, 03:27 PM   #16
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I am a fan of the aluminum beding systems seem in some stocks today. I would not glass bed an aluminum bed, there is nothing to be gained from it.

The feel of the screws tell the story, if they go down finger tight and then go fully tight with very little turning then things that need to be in contact were in contact already. If they turn in with more than a little turning then somthing is being drawn together that should have been together already. In that case it's time to bed the action.
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Old March 7, 2013, 06:52 PM   #17
Bart B.
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Wooly Booger, now I'm confused.

A 4 MOA rifle and ammo will not shoot any more accurate regardless of who shoots it. The best shots on earth may get it shooting 4.75 MOA hand held, but all the others will get larger groups.

A person whose first time within 10 feet of any firearm can load, push into battery then fire a rail gun with their finger tip on its 2-ounce trigger. All the do is touch the trigger when a rail gun's fired. Round after round after round after. . . . . . and they'll go into one tiny hole 50% bigger than the bullet diameter

Unskilled marksmen shoot test barrels screwed into M1903 Springfield actions laid in Mann rests testing match ammo at Lake City arsenal and they shoot inside 6 inches with good Nat'l match lots of barrels.

If something mechanical holds and aims the barrel exactly the same for every shot, the person pulling (touching?) the trigger needs no bench or position shooting skills whatsoever.
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Old March 7, 2013, 07:10 PM   #18
allaroundhunter
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Re: My first bolt gun, 300 win mag, What mods to do?

Bart, a shooter can have poor enough mechanics that the 4 MOA rifle will shoot under that. Or environmental conditions that change between each shot can help with a smaller group every once in a while.

Luck would be the only way a 4 MOA gun will shoot a group smaller than 4 MOA. And I have seen luck happen on many occasions...
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Old March 7, 2013, 09:05 PM   #19
Bart B.
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allaroundhunter sez:
Quote:
Luck would be the only way a 4 MOA gun will shoot a group smaller than 4 MOA. And I have seen luck happen on many occasions...
Well said. I agree.

That's what happens when benchrest records are shot. The rifles shooting them typically shoot much larger groups and all their shots go many times larger. Those tiny ones happen when all the variables cancel each other out.

Had a guy holding a 5-shot benchrest group record at 1000 yards refuse to tell me what the largest groups were his rifle has shot. That same rifle had held a several-group agg record over twice the size of that single 5-shot group. I figured his biggest ones in his agg record were at least 50% larger than the record size. And the biggest ever were obviously more than that. But he didin't want to go there and tell me the worst that rifle shot. All he cared about was the smallest ones.
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Old March 7, 2013, 11:02 PM   #20
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If you haven't sent the rifle in yet, choose your long range bullet first. Load two or three dummy rounds (no primer, either) to the OAL that will fit in your magazine. Send them with the rifle, and specify that you want the loaded round to place the bullet's bearing surface (ogive) .002 off the lands.

If you HAVE sent the rifle in, try to call them and do the same thing. If you're using the rifle for long range, you'd be hard pressed to beat a 175 grain MatchKing as your bullet of choice.

Here's why:

I have a Winchester Laredo in .300 Win Mag. The SAAMI spec for the cartridge calls for an OAL of 3.386 inches. When I shot loads that actually fit into the magazine, I was lucky to get 3" at 100 yards.

Through experimentation, I finally found a good load:
(NOTE: This load is safe in my rifle. Work yours up slowly, and reduce the starting charge by 15%--watch for signs of overpressure.)

175 MatchKing on 71.0 of IMR 4831, Federal STANDARD primers, loaded to an OAL of 3.510. This put the bullet .002 off the lands. You see, many manufacturers give the .300 Win Mag a super long throat. No, it won't fit into the magazine...but it will shoot 0.5 MOA all day long, and frequently better than that.
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Old March 8, 2013, 12:41 AM   #21
maestro pistolero
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I don't have the rifle yet, and I don't load yet either.

At this point I will be somewhat bound to commercially available loads, or I may be able to order from Black Hills, or a similar company.

Perhaps I could contact them to get their average overall length and work on the chambering from that point.

Given this information, how would you suggest I proceed with the chambering? (Remember Krieger has the barrel, and will be getting the rifle sent)

Should I choose the stock and install the bottom metal for the detachable mags first before sending it off for the barrel and action work?
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