The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old March 20, 2013, 11:09 PM   #1
ffs1942
Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2010
Posts: 75
Emergency use of .308 in 30-06 Garand?

Can the .308 be fired in a 30-06 M1?
ffs1942 is offline  
Old March 20, 2013, 11:27 PM   #2
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,560
in some cases yes but it's highly recommended against... really tears up the throat and has potential for ruptured cases...

during WWII GIs used 7.7 jap ammo in their guns, also very bad idea as 7.7 jap is 311 instead of 308...

do not plan on ever doing this.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 07:36 AM   #3
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,594
There used to be a guy who made inserts to allow shooting .308 in an '06. They worked okay for a while, but commonly would pull out during extraction of the fired case. I've no idea if they're still available, but I wouldn't use one.

All in all, best to stay with the proper ammo. Plenty of '06 brass around.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 09:30 AM   #4
Orlando
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2, 2009
Posts: 274
No not in a 30.06 chambered Garand
Orlando is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 09:51 AM   #5
alex0535
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 781
This just seems like a really bad idea unless you want to do serious damage to the rife. .308 and .30-06 are really only similar on the diameter of the bullet.


The chamber on a rifle is there for a reason. To give the outer surface of the case support. You load a .308 into a .30-06 chamber and there is going to be a substantial gap in the chamber that this bullet is going to have to jump across and into your barrel instead not having to jump across any gap because the cartridge is too short.

Stand up an unfired .308 and a .30-06 next to each other, look at them. See the difference? One belongs in a .308 and the other belongs in a .30-06.
alex0535 is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 10:39 AM   #6
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,650
I'm trying to imagine any sort of modern 'emergency situation' that would call for the use of 308 in a Garand.
chris in va is online now  
Old March 21, 2013, 10:44 AM   #7
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 2,010
You need to put the bayonet on the Garand and go for a vertical buttstroke or two.

Since you are apparently planning for this emergency, you have plenty of time to go and get some 30.06 ammo.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 10:56 AM   #8
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 20,001
Maybe I am about to cross the line between screaming "NO! NO!" and sounding like I recommend something.

I do not recommend it, but 7.62 NATO can be fired in an M1 rifle with no problems and no bad effects. The case ends up looking like a rimless .45-70. Because the 7.62 is wider at the shoulder than the .30 is at the same point, the shorter case wedges itself into the chamber. It is nearly impossible to do that in a bolt action, but the closing power of the M1 is more than enough to force the 7.62 in and close the bolt.

As to 7.7 Japanese in a .30-'06 chamber, the result is about the same except that the result is a short neck case. No special force is needed to get the shorter round to chamber, and even the Japanese clips work fine in a Model 1903 rifle. The .003" larger bullet has little or no effect and there are no signs of high pressure. (At normal pressure, a bullet becomes quite malleable, acting almost like it was made from Silly Putty, conforming to barrel dimensions, whether larger or smaller than the bullet itself.)

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 11:02 AM   #9
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,321
In the 1950s and 1960s the Navy had chamber inserts for their Garands. As was mentioned, the insert would occasionally come flying out with the ejected case.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 11:04 AM   #10
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,321
Regarding Japanese 7.7 in the Garand, I've heard that this would, over time, cause problems with bending the operating rod as the Japanese powders resulted in port pressures that were too high.

Don't know if it's true or not.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 11:11 AM   #11
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 5,432
When the US Navy rebarreled a lot of Garands to 7.62 NATO for the San Diego Recruit Training Command's use on the range at Camp Elliott, once in a while the kid issuing ammo didn't check the rifle type he issued ammo for. Same thing at the Naval District matches across the country when both .30-06 and 7.62 Garands were used.

In both instances, no reports of bad things happening to the rifle nor the shooter. Hundreds of NATO rounds were fired in 30 caliber chambers. Lots of neckless cases on the firing line was not something that was noticed by their shooters. I've stopped a few myself from continuing after noticing them and got them the correct ammo.

Those chamber inserts were the most dangerous part of the whole thing. Few were tight enough fit (had to be driven in with a mallet pounding on a setting tool) to stay there. The USN quickly got rid of the barrels that had them and put 7.62 barrels in those Garands. I think there were a few that didn't get backwards converted and ended up at the CMP for sales with the 7.62 barreled M1's. I've heard of only two that came out at one of the local matches they were used in.

I'd shoot 'em in an emergency and forget about it except for dragging the perpertrator out of the way to pick up the empty brass then calling the county medical examiner to come check out the perpertrator before bagging him.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; March 21, 2013 at 11:21 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 11:14 AM   #12
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 20,001
I didn't try the 7.7 in an M1 rifle, only in an M1903A3, so I don't know about port pressures. I do know that that issue has been so wildly exaggerated that I am not sure what to believe any more. There has been a lot of scare stories (tens of thousands of Americans died in Vietnam with M1 op rods through their heads!*) and a wealth of hype and misinformation from folks selling various gadgets to reduce or release gas cylinder pressure.

*Oddly, no one noticed this at the time; most folks thought the VC and NVA were responsible. And U.S. troops in VN didn't have M1 rifles, a small detail which also escaped the rumor mongers.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 11:20 AM   #13
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 5,432
You will get higher pressures in a .30-06 chamber than the 7.7 gets in its own barrels simple 'cause its bullets are larger in diameter.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 01:00 PM   #14
Mobuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 2,389
DO NOT FIRE ANY AMMO OTHER THAN WHAT IS MARKED ON THE FIREARM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You cannot SAFELY fire 308 in a 30/06 chamber w/o an adapter of some sort.
Where so you guys get these ideas???????????
Mobuck is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 01:42 PM   #15
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 5,432
DO NOT FIRE ANY AMMO OTHER THAN WHAT IS MARKED ON THE FIREARM!

OK, fine. We all promise to never fire and .38 Special ammo in our .357 magnum revolvers with their barrels stamped ".357 Magnum."

And we'll also quit shooting .22 shorts in our rimfire rifles marked ".22 Long Rifle."

Does the 7.62 NATO round qualify as a no-no in .308 Win. chambers found in barrels marked ".308 Win.", too, along with 5.56 NATO ammo in .223 Rem. chambers in barrels marked the same?

Did I leave any other cartridge pair that's a no-no?
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 02:34 PM   #16
Mobuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 2,389
You miss the point of my statement. Shall we say there are exceptions to every rule? The OP's question concerned a very dangerous incompatability in cartridges. In addtion, there were several absurd possible choices of interchangeability of ammo.
Many newer firearms in 357 mag also list the 38 Sp as acceptable. Regarding the 22 rimfire, in many cases, NO you should not use shorts in a long rifle chambered firearm for functional reasons.
Mobuck is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 03:41 PM   #17
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,553
I use to run sniper schools, the NG guys used M1c/d's, the RA guys used the M21's.

Both used white box, either M118 or M72. The guard guys were always grabbing the wrong ammo shooting 308 in the Garands. Couldn't hit crap but no problems other then that.

The cases looked like 458 WM without the belt. I had to hire a special ammo guy to issue the right ammo..........dummies.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 04:19 PM   #18
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 11,412
How bad is the emergency?
How poor was preparation that you have on hand an M1 and clips but no .30-06; .308 ammunition and no .308 rifle?
I think the zombies have already eaten your brain.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 04:28 PM   #19
Gunnutfn49
Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2013
Location: PR of Kalifornia
Posts: 77
Nonononononononono
__________________
"...and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."-Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan

...What he meant to add was, "unless, of course, all responsible citizens are armed to the teeth."
Gunnutfn49 is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 07:50 PM   #20
Cesure
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2013
Posts: 131
Quote:
Did I leave any other cartridge pair that's a no-no?
The .32 S&W into the .32 S&W Long into the .32 H&R Mag into the .327 Federal Mag. They're all .311 bullets in straight walled cases.

The problem with .308 in a .30-06 is that the case will most likely become unreloadable and that's a shame.
Cesure is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 08:00 PM   #21
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,321
"The OP's question concerned a very dangerous incompatability in cartridges."

Actually, as far as cartridge swaps go, it is not particularly dangerous.

As noted, the .308 will hold nicely into the chamber of many rifles, allowing it to be fired and extracted.

Because the .308 is based on the .30-06 case, the head is fully supported upon firing, so there's virtually no danger of a case head failure filling the action with the very angry genie that lives amongst the powder grains.

Because the .308 uses the same diameter bullet as the .30-06, there's virtually no danger of a spike in pressure bursting the action. In fact, pressure will be significantly decreased because of all of the extra space that has to be filled where there is no case at the front of the chamber.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 08:40 PM   #22
David13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 243
"How bad is the emergency?
How poor was preparation that you have on hand an M1 and clips but no .30-06; .308 ammunition and no .308 rifle?
I think the zombies have already eaten your brain."

Jim
I think you have figured out the emergency. And the emergency has come and gone.
dc
David13 is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 08:42 PM   #23
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 6,176
Quote:
I'm trying to imagine any sort of modern 'emergency situation' that would call for the use of 308 in a Garand.
Because someone else is trying to shoot you. You have a 30-06 chambered Garand and a handful of 308 ammo. If it will go bang when I pull the trigger and not blow up the gun, which seems probable in this case, I'd do it and worry about any gun damage later.
jmr40 is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 08:52 PM   #24
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,594
Can we bury the horse now, before it goes to smelling bad?
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old March 21, 2013, 09:02 PM   #25
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 20,001
I really considered the question a hypothetical one from the start. But I have been playing gun games for a long time and checking out (with care) some of the things people say are impossible or will cause world-wide nuclear destruction, and so far I am in one piece (so, AFAIK, is the world, at least yet).

I agree that as a general rule, Mobuck is correct. Another good general rule is not pointing a gun at anything we don't intend to shoot. But if you think about that, it becomes silly; every time I remove a gun from the safe, I am pointing it at a lot of things I am not going to shoot. If I put a loaded pistol in my holster, I will point it at the wall, the floor, and other things I sure don't want to put a hole in.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13719 seconds with 9 queries