The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 19, 2013, 08:23 PM   #1
Buford_Tannen
Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2012
Posts: 24
USA Today Article 2/19/13 - Teachers Should Confront Intruder

So in this mornings edition of USA Today there is a story on Law Enforcement now recommending that teachers confront intruders instead of running or being the victims. In the byline it mentions do so without guns in the school of course. It instructs the teachers to react as violently as possible, including throwing things at the intruder. One LEO states that "We learned from flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania on 9/11 that sometimes you have to fight for your life"

Maybe its just me but if I am a teacher I am thinking to myself, "Ok, now I have to confront the armed intruder with by bare hands because the politically correct in this world have deemed I get no armed guard for my school or a weapon of my own." Haven't I now been reduced to cannon fodder for the mentally ill?

If fighting for my life or that of my students is now the recommended course of action, quit being an idiot and give me some lead to throw at my attacker at 1000 ft/sec.
Buford_Tannen is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 08:35 PM   #2
Dr Big Bird PhD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 778
While I might catch flak for this, what is indeed happening is that these PC people are realizing that gun/violence free zones dont work. By saying that teachers should fight back, they are admitting that the only way to fight evil and violence, is with an equal force. Them moving in this direction can possibly lead to armed teachers, which is the ideal.
__________________
I told the new me,
"Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'"
But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back."
Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor
Dr Big Bird PhD is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 08:49 PM   #3
Joe_Pike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2010
Posts: 1,025
Quote:
"We learned from flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania on 9/11 that sometimes you have to fight for your life"
Those people still died, and some of them heroes. However, if someone, employed by the airline, would have been armed then it is possible that the outcome would have been totally different for those on that flight.
__________________
Stay Groovy

Last edited by Joe_Pike; February 19, 2013 at 09:05 PM.
Joe_Pike is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 08:54 PM   #4
MTSCMike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Location: Middle TN
Posts: 164
This comes from the latest advice from DHS and the point is this:

If you are confronted with an active shooter and you can't (1) escape or (2) barricade in a safe place, then (3) FIGHT. Why die in the fetal position begging for your life? Stand up and fight. You may still die but you will do so standing on your own two feet and fighting like a free person instead of being a willing victim.
__________________
IDPA Member A00640
Founding Charter Member - Middle Tennessee Shooter's Club
MTSCMike is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 09:28 PM   #5
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,371
The principal and the school psychologist at Sandy Hook Elementary School "confronted" the shooter. Hardly even slowed him down, and they both died. Teacher Victoria Soto didn't "confront" him, she chose to try to shelter her students. Didn't matter -- she was killed, too.

I find myself becoming very angry when I read "advice" such as this being shoveled out to the masses through the media. It really is a conspiracy. And it's shameful that so many people actually pay attention to it. What sane person would see anything to be gained by having an unarmed teacher (many of whom are women, and many of whom are of smaller stature and/or not in peak physical condition) try to "confront" an active shooter?

Yes, we learned a lot from 9/11 and Todd Beamer, but they (USA Today) forgot to mention that Todd and everyone else on that flight died. They prevented the plane from hitting its intended target, but the passengers are just as dead.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; February 20, 2013 at 06:13 AM. Reason: spelling
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 09:51 PM   #6
Kevin Rohrer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2010
Location: Medina, Ohio
Posts: 507
Quote:
Why die in the fetal position begging for your life? Stand up and fight. You may still die but you will do so standing on your own two feet and fighting like a free person instead of being a willing victim.
This was recommended by The Colonel >30-years ago.

DVC
__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, American Legion, & South Cuyahoga Sportsmen's Assn.

"Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery...all else is twaddle!" --Admiral Sir John Fisher, RN
Kevin Rohrer is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 09:56 PM   #7
David13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 243
Fight.
That is pure comedy. Throw a paper clip at him. Or get real serious and throw an eraser, off the chalk board.
How can humans be so stupid.
Ah ...
dc
David13 is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 10:08 PM   #8
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,867
Quote:
Fight.
That is pure comedy.
How can humans be so stupid.
Words fail me.

Know that were I, or any of those who I raised over the last 45 years, faced with the choice of fight,
or run away to not only leave others to die, but to eventually die myself in some cringing corner...

I would simply go absolutely Berserk.
I have already seen it work.
Sometimes it doesn't.
.
.
.
.
And you'd be amazed at what one man's actions can suddenly instill in others.
Suddenly it's not just one man anymore.

Cowards die many times before their death. The valiant taste of death but once.
Julius Caesar (II, ii, 32-37)

Last edited by mehavey; February 19, 2013 at 10:20 PM.
mehavey is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 11:29 PM   #9
pnac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2008
Posts: 329
It's just more "progressive" nonsense, check this out:

Quote:
Colorado College Advises Vomiting Or Urinating To Stop Rapists After Lawmakers Pass Gun Control Bills
http://www.ibtimes.com/colorado-coll...-control-bills

And this, from Homeland Security no less!:

WASHINGTON — Is your workplace getting shot up by a crazed gunman?

No problem — just grab a pair of scissors and fight back!

That’s some of the helpful advice in a new instructional video from the Department of Homeland Security that was posted on the agency’s Web site just a month after the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...puVezePd6trYoM
__________________
In my hour of darkness
In my time of need
Oh Lord grant me vision
Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons
pnac is offline  
Old February 20, 2013, 09:01 PM   #10
Buford_Tannen
Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2012
Posts: 24
Saw the "Urinate or tell the attacker you have VD" on the news this morning.
Really? How stupid is that? Its been known for years that rapists do not rape people for sex. So how is having VD going to keep a victim from getting maimed or killed?
Buford_Tannen is offline  
Old February 20, 2013, 09:32 PM   #11
pnac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2008
Posts: 329
It's like the "lie back and enjoy it" advice of a few years back, anything but the common sense approach of arming yourself so you can fight back.

More and more people are waking up to the fact that self defense is their own responsibility and arming themselves accordingly, some folks seem to find that troubling.
__________________
In my hour of darkness
In my time of need
Oh Lord grant me vision
Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons
pnac is offline  
Old February 20, 2013, 09:41 PM   #12
mayosligo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 301
USA Today Article 2/19/13 - Teachers Should Confront Intruder

I guess I would fight back, but how much better would fighting be if I actually had a weapon worth a damn.
mayosligo is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 08:18 AM   #13
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,424
Quote:
So in this mornings edition of USA Today there is a story on Law Enforcement now recommending that teachers confront intruders instead of running or being the victims. In the byline it mentions do so without guns in the school of course. It instructs the teachers to react as violently as possible, including throwing things at the intruder. One LEO states that "We learned from flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania on 9/11 that sometimes you have to fight for your life"
You diidn't post a link to the story and after a brief search, I could not find the particular story to which you were referring (internet force not strong with me this morning). The only story from the 19th I could find was on teachers carrying guns in AZ. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...hools/1931429/

However, confronting an intruder is NOT exclusive from being a victim. Having a gun is not exclusive from being a victim. Lots of

Quote:
Maybe its just me but if I am a teacher I am thinking to myself, "Ok, now I have to confront the armed intruder with by bare hands because the politically correct in this world have deemed I get no armed guard for my school or a weapon of my own." Haven't I now been reduced to cannon fodder for the mentally ill?
You apparently didn't pay attention to the article or what you wrote to summarize it. Why would you necessarily use your bare hands when you can use various weapons of opportunity in the classroom? Also, nobody says you HAVE TO confront the intruder. It is just a suggested course of action, one of which is your call to implement given the situation.

Quote:
It's like the "lie back and enjoy it" advice of a few years back, anything but the common sense approach of arming yourself so you can fight back.
That comment was made by pro-gun Republican Texas gubernatorial candidate Clayton Williams back around 1980 (more than just a few years ago). It was made in the context of a joke about the weather, not actually meant as true self defense advice. The statement was so outrageous and offensive that it became a signifificant factor in Willimams' loss of the election...to Democrat Ann Richards, the first elected female governor of Texas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Williams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Richards
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 08:40 AM   #14
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,088
Link to the USA Today article dated 2/18/2013:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...oters/1920601/

Yep, some teachers in CT confronted Adam Lanza.

BTW: There was an altercation between Adam Lanza and teachers at the school a day or two before the massacre.

Allow teachers who hold concealed carry permits to pack at school. Silly me, the anti-self defense, anti-gun blissninnies won't allow that.

From the article:

Quote:
Police officials said they were not advocating arming teachers, students, office workers or others to prepare for such attacks; they also emphasized that confronting the attacker should always be the last option.

Last edited by thallub; February 21, 2013 at 08:46 AM.
thallub is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 09:42 AM   #15
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,424
Thanks for finding the correct story.

Right, so fighting back means you have a chance to forcefully help determine your fate, but does not preclude you from being a victim. With that said, this notion of fighting back is not a new idea. There have been instructional videos on this distributed or shown to various districts for several years. Maybe fighting back is gaining steam.

Quote:
BTW: There was an altercation between Adam Lanza and teachers at the school a day or two before the massacre.
So not completely random and he apparently killed three of the four with whom he had the confrontation.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...-lanza-1493709
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 07:06 PM   #16
Buford_Tannen
Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2012
Posts: 24
Double Naught

Yes, I summarized because I think spending time to look for a weapon is pretty close to a no win scenario. Perhaps a teacher could quickly search the classroom for things to throw at the intruder. The reality is in pre-school or grade school classroom, someone with a gun comes into the room the teacher is going to be immediately surrounded by 28+ scared children. What teacher would leave them unprotected by going to get something to throw? (Oh and things dangerous to adults are usually more so to young children.)

Sorry but your, think fast, look for a weapon approach is flawed. There is no time to do so. Not an expert but it would seem 3-5 seconds at most before bad things start to happen. Only thing I have to throw at the intruder is me. That's what some teachers in Newton did. Not a very successful strategy.
Buford_Tannen is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 07:19 PM   #17
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,877
I just ran through the "Active Shooter Preparedness" online course on the DHS website. It goes into much more depth about before/after stuff, but the basic advice for "during" is still (1) evacuate if you can, (2) hide if you can't, (3) fight back as a last resort if your life is in imminent danger.

Despite a great deal of attention paid to how to prepare for the possibility of such an event: know where the exits are even if you're a visitor, etc. -- NO mention was made of considering, ahead of time, what objects in the immediate area might serve as weapons of opportunity.

I'd conclude from this that the folks who put this together don't really see fighting back as a real possibility, nor do they want to encourage it.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 08:16 PM   #18
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,088
It seems the term "active shooter" has become vogue. Are there any "inactive shooters."

Never mind, i looked it up. Looks like the term originated with the Dep't of Homeland Security.

Last edited by thallub; February 21, 2013 at 08:36 PM.
thallub is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 09:21 PM   #19
USMC EOD
Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 60
They want you to fight back, but disarm you so you cannot fight back effectively. Liberals are so stupid!
USMC EOD is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 09:37 PM   #20
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,694
What's significant here is what may be essentially the beginnings of a paradigm shift.

It's very important and hopeful that the notion of fighting back is, perhaps, starting to gain some traction. We've been becoming too inclined to passivity.

The first step is coming to the understanding that there are times and circumstances when the right thing is for the good guy to fight back against the bad guy. That realization needs to begin to take root. From there we can start talking about the right ways, the right tools, when and how.

But first we need to break through that "violence is always bad, even by good guys" conceptual barrier that seems to have become pervasive in our modern, urbanized world.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 10:34 PM   #21
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,928
I had a long conversation with a relative of mine the other day. She's an elementary school teacher in a rough district in another state. We started talking about what she could do, within the rules of her district, to protect her children.

First, she decided to place some useful things in her classroom. These are all common objects that absolutely no one would think twice about, not even the kids.

1) There's a baseball bat leaning in the corner near the door.
2) Heavy three-hole punch located conveniently on the corner of her desk.
3) Grownup scissors inside her desk drawer.

Her classroom door has a window in it. She has a stack of black construction paper and some tape right next to the door. If they go into lockdown, she will cover that window after she locks the door.

The door swings outward, so no use getting a rubber door stop. However, she has a paracord bracelet on a high shelf, along with a plan for lashing the doorknob to her heavy desk in case the intruder has a master key to the school.

One wall of the classroom has knee-to-ceiling windows. She has visualized breaking one of those windows with a chair, and has a heavy rug from the classroom that she could throw over the opening to keep anyone from getting cut as they climb out, if they need to flee for any reason.

The kids all know that if the lockdown alarm sounds, the "class monitor" (special kid for the day) needs to pull the big curtains closed while everyone else gets out of sight in the safest corner of the room.

This isn't the same thing as if she had a gun and was prepared to use it, but it's a whole lot better than, "If the alarm sounds, just hide."

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 10:38 PM   #22
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,420
Pax,

Thanks for sharing that. I'm going to print that and give it to my Mother and ask her what she thinks.

Obviously, not all of that will apply to her classroom, for instance her door swings inward and she only has one window, but the rest of your advice is superb!
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 10:46 PM   #23
KBP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2010
Location: Luthersburg, PA
Posts: 264
teachers with guns

Hopefully, I can add something to this discussion. I am a retired High School teacher with 32 years of teaching. For many years, I kept a handgun and hunting rifle in my truck to go hunting after school. The shop teacher had students bring in their guns to school to do minor repairs(he was a gunsmith) In metal shop, he taught the students how to make knives and black powder cannons. We had a rifle team that practiced after school.(on SCHOOL PROPERTY) For Health class, the health teacher brought in several types of handguns to teach handgun safety. We never had a problem, no shootings, or mass murders of any kind! Since the "no gun zone for schools" laws have been passed, there have been hundreds of school shootings and it seems only to be getting worse. In our school, since the first mass killings at Colinbine, we have had a SRO( School Resource Officer) and that has worked out fine. I am against requiring or expecting teachers to provide security for students, but by making it illegal for teachers with concealed carry permits or hunting licenses to even possess firearms locked up in their vehicles or handy in case of need, the politicians have made us all easy marks for mass killings. Even the smallest penknife, pictures of guns or discussions of guns has become illegal and bad. People are killed every day by cars and we have drivers education and it isn't illegal for students of age with licenses to drive to school! We are allowed to talk about disease and how to keep healthy but not talk about gun safety or even show the do's and don'ts of proper firearms safety. We are not allowed to protect ourself anymore and most schools are soft targets of high interest by mentally ill individuals. Ask the President, are his kids protected by just anti-gun laws or by armed guards? And yes, our school kids are at risk today because sick people know if they get in to a school, they will be able to kill at will. What are we as teachers going to do? Throw pencils at the killers?

Last edited by KBP; February 21, 2013 at 10:53 PM.
KBP is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 10:52 PM   #24
lockedcj7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Posts: 968
One of our local school districts is adopting the A.L.I.C.E. training model. I've read as much as I can and watched the videos. It makes a helluva lot more sense than anything else out there. The only thing that would make more sense would be to let me actually carry a weapon that I might be able use to defend my students.
__________________
To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.
lockedcj7 is offline  
Old February 21, 2013, 10:52 PM   #25
tynman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 265
WOW they say teachers make to much money and have the summer off.... They don't work hard enough... Now they want them to be targets for the nut with a bunch of guns and ammo... How could you ask anyone to do something like that..... What is wrong with these people!!!!

I say give a few teachers in every school the training and a concealed weapon and make them qualify 2 times a year like the cops do and there is your security when they are needed to protect our kids in school....
tynman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14896 seconds with 9 queries