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Old February 19, 2013, 07:44 PM   #51
MercyfulFate
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Blah

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Old February 19, 2013, 08:02 PM   #52
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Telling us vague descriptions such as "literally into pieces" and painting a broad brush that S&W is being jerks for no reason or the OP isn't providing key information is the pot telling the kettle is black. Looks like to me the OP has provided fairly accurate information in good faith. Also, have you took the 2 seconds and clicked on the pic the OP provided? The frame is cracked wide open. There is no viable repair to a polymer frame that's cost effective and making it "new" again from a manufacturer's standpoint. They have the right to repair or replace at the manufacturer's choice.
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Old February 19, 2013, 08:31 PM   #53
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...what is your problem exactly?

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Old February 19, 2013, 08:38 PM   #54
greyeyezz
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There is one reason I always keep my ammo boxes and lot #'s, in case of a defective round destroys one of my weapons.

S&W is not obligated to contact Federal, and vise versa, that is the OP's job.

Either way one of the two companies damn well better man up or I will be going straight to an attorney with evidence, and would demand compensation.

Factory ammo doesn't have an expiration date last time I checked. This is in no way the OP's fault.

Also it's very common for the pistol manufacturer and ammo company to point fingers at one another in this situation. Either way someone needs to step up.
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Old February 19, 2013, 08:53 PM   #55
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My, my, this thread is heating up I do hope the mighty Mod-Gods are merciful to MercyfulFate.. And he is not smitten with my lord and master, Tuttle' s, ban-Hammer.

Anyhoo, I really don't see why S&W would lie about this. There is a reason why they want destroyed guns back. It allows them to assess weak points or problems in production.

Why would they risk a potential suit, when they can just send a free gun? Obviously they have their facts lined up..

As for contacting Federal for you, I'll have to check my paperwork, I had no idea S&W agreed to be my lawyer when I bought their gun!
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Old February 19, 2013, 09:04 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyfulFate
What is your problem? I don't think you understood my post, you should relax. I saw the OP's picture, thanks. This isn't that serious.
My friend's gun isn't the issue here, why do you care? I was offering it as an anecdote of what happened when a gun broke from another, unrelated company.
I also didn't say S&W are being jerks, I said either they are or some piece of the story might be missing. Perhaps I should've used a different word, either way you're overreacting.
Sorry, MercufulFate. I guess my problem is I didn't read your post correctly. Let me leave my previous post in view and this one to be the revised one. Mkay? Here we go with changes made in bold...

Telling us vague descriptions such as "literally into pieces" and painting a broad brush that you feel S&W is being jerks for no reason or the OP isn't providing key information is the pot telling the kettle is black. Looks like to me the OP has provided fairly accurate information in good faith. Also, did you happen to see the pic the OP provided? The frame is cracked. [don't read here. wide open]. I feel, IMHO there is no viable repair to a polymer frame that's cost effective and making it "new" again from a manufacturer's standpoint. They have the right to repair or replace at the manufacturer's choice.

Quote:
My friend's gun isn't the issue here, why do you care? I was offering it as an anecdote of what happened when a gun broke from another, unrelated company.
Um....because you brought it up comparing Savage's customer service to what you "feel" S&W might be doing to the OP. Or...are you drifting the thread off-topic?

Quote:
I also didn't say S&W are being jerks, I said either they are or some piece of the story might be missing. Perhaps I should've used a different word, either way you're overreacting.
Huh, coulda fooled me. I guess I forgot you used that word "feel" to completely change the context of the situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyfulFate
I feel like either S&W are being jerks for no good reason, or some piece of the story is missing.
Hmmm....overreacting? Not for a silly little Staff member like me.
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Old February 19, 2013, 09:05 PM   #57
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Ending it.

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Old February 19, 2013, 09:49 PM   #58
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After looking again at the pics provided by the OP, I think he might have to accept the fact and eat the cost of replacement on his own. S&W's offer seems fair, if not generous.

And the reason I say this is the pic of the ammo in the box. Ammo makers, even Federal do NOT mix differently headstamped brass in the same box.

Since there is at least one case with a different headstamp than the rest, it is clear that, at some point, the ammo was "tampered with". Now, it could have been a factory screw up, but I don't think that's likely.

The age of the ammo in this case, works against the OP. Not from a "old ammo is unsafe" point, but from a "we have no idea what was really in that box" point of view.

Clearly all the rounds in that box were not identical. Now we don't know, and can't proove that they were all factory ammo. The OP could, through no fault of his own, be the victim of product tampering.

Lots of ammo is sold in factory boxes that isn't what the factory originally put in that box. The mismatch of case headstamps prooves something happened to that box of ammo after it left the factory. Federal is not responsible for that. Nor should they be.

It's sad, but I don't see the OP having a good case.
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Old February 19, 2013, 09:51 PM   #59
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If you put diesel fuel in your gasoline-engined truck & found it wouldn't run, would you expect the truck's maker to replace your truck?

If it wasn't the gun, Smith & Wesson has no obligation whatever to act as your agent in dealing with Federal, they have no obligation whatever to replace your gun, and your expectations are unrealistic.

No blemish attaches to S&W.
Deal directly with Federal & go from there.
Expect nothing further from S&W beyond their kind offer to sell you a new one at a discount price. Which WAS a kind offer. They've already gone farther with you than they had to.
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Old February 19, 2013, 11:37 PM   #60
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I will second or third the thought that S&W has done the right thing with their offer. You cant expect them to handle the complaint any other way at this point.

I will postulate IMHO that picture number 3 from the OP shows at least three different head stamps and one round that appears to have been fired previously.

Counting from the upper left most round, to the right then down to the left again, I see:

Round 5 appears to have extractor marks at the 5 o'clock position;
Rounds 5, 7 and 8 have larger font on the stamp 'F C' than the others, along with the previously mentioned 'FEDERAL' stamp in the lower right.

I suspect reloaded ammo is possible in this instance, if that is the case, I suspect that Federal may be able to determine this with disassembly of the rounds and an analysis of the powder - regardless of the volume. Not saying the OP had anything to do with the rounds, as he may have simply purchased reloads unknowingly.

Best of luck in pursuing this with Federal.
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Old February 20, 2013, 12:31 AM   #61
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I do not figure how you arrive at the conclusion that S&W is 'On the hook'. Sounded to me like they said it was not a faulty gun. That does not mean S&W is saying it was faulty ammunition. I can understand your wanting someone to pick up the cost of establishing your case, but I do not see S&W picking up the ball, too many variables.
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Old February 20, 2013, 04:54 AM   #62
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Sounded to me like they said it was not a faulty gun. That does not mean S&W is saying it was faulty ammunition
So it's the OP's fault for buying a S&W then shooting it?

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Old February 20, 2013, 06:44 AM   #63
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Carbonyl, please read the previous ten or so posts.

From the OP's picture of the box of ammo he was using, there are signs of at least one or two reloaded cartridges, plus a mix of headstamps.

In other words, this was NOT a box of factory Federal ammo.

NO firearm manufacturer honors warranties if the shooter uses handloads. NO ammo manufacturer would honor a warranty when at least some of the ammo in the box is clearly not their factory ammo.

As I see it, the OP's only recourse is to go after the vendor who sold him the ammo - in which case, he'd better hope he has a receipt.
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Old February 20, 2013, 10:17 AM   #64
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Sorry. But I don't buy the poster's logic in here.

Everything you buy with a warranty includes the cost of the warranty in the purchase price. It is the same faulty logic of people not using the health care they get as part of their compensation. If your company stopped providing health care they had previously, they should give you a raise in order to make it fair. The health care is being paid for by the worker.

Same thing with any item with a warranty. If it comes with a warranty, the company has already run a regression figuring out the failure rate, the chance of return, and put that into the cost of the item.

He used supposedly factory ammo. S&W should be taking care of it. If not their fault, they should at least be contacting the main stream ammo manufacture for the buyer.

I would call and ask for a manager.

(all assuming the ammo is regular stuff)
Do you read warranty agreements? You understand that almost every warranty ever created is for a limited time, and only covers manufacturing defects (that the law of averages says will happen, if you make enough products). If what you're saying is correct, I should be able to crash my car into a light pole, and the manufacturer should replace it. But that's not the case. Warranties ONLY cover problems that are specifically the fault of the manufacturer, and even then, only under certain circumstances.

S&W is under no obligation, warranty or not, to do ANYTHING for the OP. The problem wasn't their fault. The fact that they're offering a replacement at dealer cost shows they're going above and beyond, and that they care about the customer.
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Old February 20, 2013, 02:10 PM   #65
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What I am confused about is why people are taking the side of a producer?

The OP didn't come in with an attitude. Assuming the bullets are factory, consumers should back other consumers-producers only get away with bad products when they aren't called on it. Why are other consumers immediately jumping to the producers side?

The producers test is evidence? ha. Right. How many times have I had to push a dealership to fix a car under warranty that they first balk at? Many. Please.
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Old February 20, 2013, 02:21 PM   #66
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Quote:
What I am confused about is why people are taking the side of a producer?
Because that's who we agree with...

Quote:
Assuming the bullets are factory, consumers should back other consumers-producers only get away with bad products when they aren't called on it. Why are other consumers immediately jumping to the producers side?
The evidence I've seen so far leads me far more to believe it was the ammo than the firearm. Idk about you, but most ammo I buy doesn't have different headstamps in the same box. Likely someone sold that box of ammo to the store claiming it was factory when it had been reloaded. The store took that person at his/her word, and didn't look too closely at it, and then sold it to the OP. Now he's in the current situation.
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Old February 20, 2013, 02:25 PM   #67
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Re: s&w warranty isn't bullet proof

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
What I am confused about is why people are taking the side of a producer?

The OP didn't come in with an attitude. Assuming the bullets are factory, consumers should back other consumers-producers only get away with bad products when they aren't called on it. Why are other consumers immediately jumping to the producers side?

The producers test is evidence? ha. Right. How many times have I had to push a dealership to fix a car under warranty that they first balk at? Many. Please.
Because the evidence provided by the OP is clear.

1. The ammo he used has mixed headstamps in the box leading on to believe it is not factory ammo.

2. If the ammo was factory (it is most likely not) with the approximate age th OP provided that ammo was known to cause catastrophic failure in certain guns.

3. Because S&W is not a sleazy car dealership and the have a proven track record of quality customer service and really have more to loose than gain by falsely not honoring their warranty. I believe their lab results to be true and the OP should be able to request a copy.
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Old February 20, 2013, 04:40 PM   #68
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Quote:
Why are other consumers immediately jumping to the producers side?
You must not be reading the same thing as most everyone else. Obviously, the box and price tag on it are original and the ammo that originally came in it was factory. But, the ammo in it now (or at least some of it) likely is not. The OP does not remember actually buying the ammo 15+ years ago from the LGS. He assumes the ammo is factory because of the lgs's price tag on it. Mixed headstamps in the same box is a huge red flag that it's likely reloaded ammo.
The OP also stated "and then felt a nasty recoil on the 4th shot. then my hand went numb"
Indicating that round was loaded way too hot.

As I stated in an earlier post, I bought what was claimed to be brand new factory ammo... my proof to the vendor that the "new" factory ammo he sold me was actually reloads was the brass was all headstamped MIDWAY. Midway never made ammo and Winchester never used Midway brass.

Jim

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Old February 20, 2013, 04:52 PM   #69
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I hear that, but when you go back and look at the history of this thread #2 (without ammo pictures) tells the OP tough.

Guns do break...
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Old February 20, 2013, 05:00 PM   #70
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Guns do break...
Yeah, you're right! Stick dynamite in them and they will break.

I feel bad for the OP also. He's out a gun and that sucks. He wants someone else to pay for it. I understand. He did not know the ammo might be bad reloads.
And while hindsight is great, a good rule of thumb is if you don't know where the ammo came from then don't use it. Or, at least learn how to detect reloads. May not always work, but...

If it were me, at this point, I would take S&W up on their offer.

Jim

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Old February 20, 2013, 05:18 PM   #71
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Wild cat one of the things I like most about this site is the intelligent exchange of ideas. The biggest reason for that is the way the Moderators maintain order here in my opinion. As a result we are able to share honest opinions that sometimes are in complete opposition. I think it is part of the learning process. Spirited debate is a good thing as long it is civil, esp in this format; without civility it quickly becomes a 'mine is bigger than yours' free-for-all that has little value.

Many of us are taking the "producers side", based on the evidence presented here. Most of us have undoubtedly had situations where a manufacturer has to be pushed to honor a warranty. If the evidence supported that course of action the overwhelming feedback of this group would be to pursue further action with S&W. It does not.
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Old February 20, 2013, 05:25 PM   #72
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Quote:
What I am confused about is why people are taking the side of a producer?
Because evidence points to the ammo not being factory. Because I'm an honest person and the evidence is pretty clear, the producer (of the gun) IS NOT AT FAULT.

Quote:
The OP didn't come in with an attitude.
I haven't seen any attitude from anyone here in this thread yet. People are discussing something on an online forum. Not sure why this is pertinent.

Quote:
Assuming the bullets are factory,
Evidence shows they most likely are not...so it's a poor assumption.

Quote:
consumers should back other consumers-producers only get away with bad products when they aren't called on it.
I'll back other consumers when they are in the right. In this case, the consumer is not. If everyone made a false claim, then it costs the company money. Do you think the company is going to just eat that cost? No, they're going to pass it on to us. False claims increase the costs for EVERYONE. I fully agree that a producer should make it right when it's their fault. But I also believe as consumers, we need to take responsibility for our actions. In this case, the consumer loaded bad ammo in his gun. It's his fault. S&W is giving the consumer an incredible deal, when they have no obligation to.

Quote:
Why are other consumers immediately jumping to the producers side?
And why are you immediately jumping to the consumers side? Loading bad ammo into a gun isn't the fault of anyone except the consumer.

Quote:
The producers test is evidence? ha. Right.
Yes, because the producer in this case has a reputation to uphold. S&W will make something right if it's their fault. Their lab processess need to be able to hold up in court. If they lie about something, and the consumer sues them, uh oh, it's going to cost them 100s of times what it would have cost them to replace the thing in the first place. This is the first instance of a Shield kaboom I've heard of. S&W makes quality products. Can bad products slip through the cracks? Of course. But in this instance the evidence is showing the gun manufacturer is not at fault...yet you're backing up the consumer who is at fault? Hmm.

Quote:
How many times have I had to push a dealership to fix a car under warranty that they first balk at? Many. Please.
What's the relavance? We're talking about guns here. There's no car manufacturer out there with a good reputation when it comes to warranties. S&W on the other hand, has a very good reputation and will make right their issues.

I side with the side that is right. The consumer in this case did something he shouldn't have. S&W shouldn't replace a gun I throw in a fire, right? Then why should they replace a gun that has been loaded with questionable ammo?
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Old February 20, 2013, 05:57 PM   #73
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So it's the OP's fault for buying a S&W then shooting it?
THis sounds as logical as the opinion that S&W is responsible,
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Old February 20, 2013, 11:10 PM   #74
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Quote:
What I am confused about is why people are taking the side of a producer?

I hear that, but when you go back and look at the history of this thread #2 (without ammo pictures) tells the OP tough.

Guns do break...
Really? There are several pieces of evidence you may have missed.

I stand behind S&W and take their side. I'm going to make a few assumptions about the R&D and testing that S&W has done in bringing the weapon to market. I will bet you paychecks they have more data on the strength of the polymer frame and barrel of that gun than you can read in a week. I imagine it includes enough scientific evidence to reasonably prove that no normally produced SAAMI spec factory loads can blow out the side and back strap of the frame and tie up the chamber as this one was. I bet they have an estimate of the CPU/PSI required to do this to the weapon with great confidence. They may have also been able to carefully inspect and measure the subject chamber and barrel to determine that it was of size and condition that could not have resulted from factory ammo.

Where I work, clues lead to evidence and reasonable conclusions that the majority can clearly understand and comprehend beyond a reasonable doubt. Here we have several clues and at least one piece of damning photographic evidence (reloaded rounds) that are not in the OPs favor.

That is why nearly everyone is supporting S&W.
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Old February 21, 2013, 12:42 AM   #75
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Why would I take S&W's side? Because they've always had mine. I'm a walking jinx. I've had numerous issues with all brands of guns. A number of those S&W (no catastrophic failures though). In all those times not once has S&W asked me to pay a dime. They've handled it all for me in the politest manner possible. I reward that treatment with something called faith. So no I don't think S&W is some "shady car dealer".
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