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Old February 18, 2013, 12:45 AM   #26
Nanuk
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Quote:
age of the ammo is a potential factor.

whats the headstamp on the federal ammo.

years ago when 40sw was young caliber Federal made some ammo that was thin in the casehead and would rupture when fired in poorly supported chambers.
What he said. I believe it was the reason for the Glock KBOOMS. Contact Federal.
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Old February 18, 2013, 01:05 AM   #27
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Bought 40 cal shield in december.
used some old ammo, maybe 15 years old Federal, Hyra shock.
blew up on the 4th shot.
I have the box of ammo it came out of.

I sent them the gun, the head stamp I found on the ground and the brass was still in the gun. They inspected it at their lab.
Federal had some issues with their early .40S&W ammo leading to a recall and some changes to later batches.

That's been a long time ago, but contacting Federal/ATK would probably still be worth a shot.
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Old February 18, 2013, 07:35 AM   #28
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Its not the pistols fault.you are responsable for the ammo you put in it.Contact the Federal.As several have suggested.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...let-proof.html
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Old February 18, 2013, 09:46 AM   #29
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I'm wondering if similar damage would have resulted if the firearm had not been plastic.
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Old February 18, 2013, 11:46 AM   #30
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The same thing. ^^^^^^^
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Old February 18, 2013, 06:28 PM   #31
wild cat mccane
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HA!

This is funny. Everyone is posting as if S&W isn't lying about their product.

Um why can't the gun just be defective and it not be the ammo?
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Old February 18, 2013, 07:03 PM   #32
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HA!

This is funny. Everyone is posting as if S&W isn't lying about their product.

Um why can't the gun just be defective and it not be the ammo?
1. Because S&W has a solid reputation for their firearms and customer service if it is their fault.
2. They have lab results that would most likely hold up in the court of law due to the careful nature of their inspection/lab process.

Sorry you're ticked L2R. But your expectations of what S&W should be doing for you is above and beyond reasonable, plain and simple. They've offered you another gun at a good discount in show of good faith even though the findings weren't their fault. Let it go and take the offer.

You can contact Federal and see what they have to say. I wouldn't expect much. You can show all the evidence you want but neither you nor S&W can prove there wasn't bullet setback on the round you fired that caused the damage. "But Shane, if there's bullet setback, then why isn't it Federal's fault?" Because you can't prove you didn't dry cycle that loaded round multiple times which has been proven setback happens even with factory ammo.
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Old February 18, 2013, 07:38 PM   #33
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This is funny. Everyone is posting as if S&W isn't lying about their product.
Gun manufacturers must and do take liability concerns very seriously. As Mr. Tuttle states, S&W has a Sterling reputation and they have been in business for a very long time.

I find it curious that you would even suspect them of not being up front about the cause of the failure. There is some integrity left in this Country, precious little.......but it is there.
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Old February 18, 2013, 07:57 PM   #34
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Old 40s&w ammo having weak casing problems is well documented. That could indeed be the problem here. BUT another factor in the ammo being old could be that over time and use, chambering & unchambering live rounds could easily cause 40s&w bullets to be pushed back into the cases just enough to increase the pressure of the round when it fires. Less space in the case for the powder to combust in equals higher pressures in the casings. It does/has happened with 40s&w rounds. I don't keep rechambering unfired 40s&w rounds for this reason. After several re-chamberings I shoot the ammo at the next range session just in case. Just some food for thought...
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Old February 18, 2013, 08:00 PM   #35
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Let's say you bought a new Ford automobile. After filling the tank the engine was damaged from a very bad batch of gasoline.

Would you expect Ford to replace the engine and then pursue the gas station, or distributor or supplier of the gasoline, to pay for the repairs?

I just don't think that's Smith & Wesson's responsibility. And I have to agree with others that S&W has a sterling reputation when it comes to customer service.

One thought, though. Can you ask Smith & Wesson for a copy of their analysis of your firearm? That may provide you with some "ammunition" is dealing with Federal. And it will help you understand how they reached their conclusions.

But if this is truly 15 year old ammo I suspect Federal's responsibility has long since passed. I'm not sure what the warranty is on ammo, or even if there is one, but ammo this old would reasonably seem to be long out of warranty. Rock meet hard place.

FYI this experience really bites. I know how much I enjoy my firearms and to have that happen is really a rotten thing. Sorry it happened.
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Old February 18, 2013, 08:16 PM   #36
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If Federal asks you to return the ammo for inspection, do not return it all. Send them a few rounds for sample, and maybe the box (after photocopying the entire box), and keep some ammo and copy of the box for your records/evidence, in case you get into a LEGAL disagreement later on. I had a tif with Remington over some older, but new condition reloading components (brass) that was defective. Remington returned the obviously defect brass (costing me shipping to them) and never made it right. What I am saying is big companies MAY ignore you, so be prepared. I will never buy Remington brass again, and like telling everyone I can about my "experience" with them.
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Old February 18, 2013, 08:22 PM   #37
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Judging by the oxidation shown on the round pointing up in your picture that is some old ammo. You gave us pictures of everything but the most important part of the ammo box, the lot number. Here as a link that can help you figure out what you have see Annotation #2 I would have researched it for you but without a lot number there is not much I can do. If that ammo is around 18 years old it was a well known problem back in the mid 90s. Gave both Glock and the 40 S&W round a bad rap for a bit. Good luck I'm not sure how liable Federal is for ammo they recalled 18 years ago.

If you don't get satisfactory results by contacting Federal try posting pictures of the gun and the separated case head on their facebook page and describe the problem. Companies are pretty quick to solve problems when it becomes a PR issue for the world to see. I wouldn't go that rout until all other avenues have been exhausted.

Keep us posted.
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Old February 18, 2013, 08:27 PM   #38
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I really don't think S&W owes the OP anything, aside from a copy of the lab report supporting their conclusion - and even that would require at least some good will on the part of S&W.

I'm not sure if Federal owes the OP anything, if in fact that ammo had previously been recalled.

Plus, it remains to be determined if that was even Federal factory ammo.

Using old ammo from questionable sources is akin to using cheap gas from fly-by-night vendors. I have to agree with RichC.

I don't think the OP's expectations are remotely reasonable.
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Old February 18, 2013, 08:46 PM   #39
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S&W says it’s not their fault or problem and maybe they’re correct but after seeing the picture and hearing their response I’d never feel confident buying one. If this happened to a Ruger I bet the response would have been very different.
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Old February 18, 2013, 09:21 PM   #40
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S&W says it’s not their fault or problem and maybe they’re correct but after seeing the picture and hearing their response I’d never feel confident buying one. If this happened to a Ruger I bet the response would have been very different.
Carbonyl I am a big Ruger fan, but I would not expect them to replace a pistol damaged by improper ammunition, any more than I would expect S&W to replace this one.

Yes, for the OP it is a bad situation, but that does not mean someone else must make this right under the circumstances. S&W is not responsible, unless they are lying about their testing. We have no reason to believe that. Federal may or may not be responsible, or maybe they have already taken steps to make this right at some time in the distant past; or the ammo may have been tampered with at the selling dealer's facility; or a variety of other scenarios are possible. Until Federal is contacted we do not have enough info to draw any conclusions IMO. We certainly don't have enough info to condemn S&W or Federal at this point.
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Old February 18, 2013, 09:43 PM   #41
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Carbonyl
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S&W says it’s not their fault or problem and maybe they’re correct but after seeing the picture and hearing their response I’d never feel confident buying one. If this happened to a Ruger I bet the response would have been very different.
So, you're saying that after 1 post from 1 person who fired old ammunition known for making guns go kaboom you would never feel confident in buying a gun from S&W who has been making some of the worlds finest handguns since 1856 (that's 157 years). If Smith & Wesson sent the gun to their lab and determined it was destroyed by the owner shooting faulty ammunition through the gun what makes you think Ruger would have a different response.

I love Ruger guns and agree their customer service is awesome but they won't replace a gun that the end user blew up with a poor/uninformed ammunition choice. Rugers warranty and customer service are equaled by S&W. The fact that S&W basically said after lab testing it was determined there was no manufacturing error on their part that caused the catastrophic failure but they would sell him a new one at cost shows their customer service is second to none.
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Old February 18, 2013, 09:54 PM   #42
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I'm not trying to offend anyone or start a debate, just stating how I feel based on what was posted.
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Old February 18, 2013, 10:02 PM   #43
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I'm not trying to offend anyone or start a debate, just stating how I feel based on what was posted.
I'm not offended in the least just discussing your post. That's what forums are for and I have learned a lot from guys pointing out errors in my thoughts. Especially here on TFL this is a good community of folks willing to help and learn from one another.
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Old February 18, 2013, 10:04 PM   #44
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I'm not trying to offend anyone or start a debate, just stating how I feel based on what was posted.
And people are responding to what you posted. Welcome to an internet forum.
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Old February 19, 2013, 07:29 AM   #45
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I would get something in writting from S&W that states that the ammo was the cause then go to federal.
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Old February 19, 2013, 08:23 AM   #46
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S&W says it’s not their fault or problem and maybe they’re correct but after seeing the picture and hearing their response I’d never feel confident buying one. If this happened to a Ruger I bet the response would have been very different.
And had the gun been a Taurus it would definitely been the fault of the gun. Everone knows Taurus lies and builds only junk. S&W can do no wrong!

I had actually thought about buying a Shield. I, too, don't think I could trust one of these S&W polys. Maybe one of the bigger M&Ps.

Okay, S&W fans go for the rant.
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Old February 19, 2013, 09:57 AM   #47
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I've never owned a S&W nor do I care to, but it's not their responsibility to eat the cost of a gun destroyed by bad ammo, nor is their responsibility to deal with the ammo manufacturer.

This part might get deleted, but I find it childish to assume you're entitled to anything from S&W if it wasn't a defective gun, and that they should compensate you in any way because you "feel" that you shouldn't have to deal with it and they should just "make it go away" for you.

Every time we pick up a gun, we assume and accept responsibility for those actions. In the event of a malfunction we have the right to try and determine the cause and expect reparation from the RESPONSIBLE party. We do not have the right to ask any one else, company or otherwise, to make good on another's mistake.
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Old February 19, 2013, 12:26 PM   #48
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And yes, I am a little ticked that their offer was dealer cost not their cost.
Why?

It wasn't their fault the gun kaboomed. They already did a lot for you and ran the gun through the lab and narrowed the problem down to the ammo (something that would cost you hundreds of dollars if you sent it in to a lab on your own). They're giving you a very good deal on something that isn't their responsibility to fix. Think about it from their perspective.

I would definitely try to get something out of Federal as it very well could be their problem. However, there could be other issues out of their control as well. If this was ammo that was ever loaded into a gun, there's the possibility the bullet was overseated creating higher pressure. I'm not saying this is what happened, but I think you're in a losing, up hill battle. I'd say contact Federal, and do what you can do with them, but take S&W up on their very good, very generous offer (especially since Shields seem to be an endangered species right now).
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Old February 19, 2013, 12:33 PM   #49
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Regarding the following quote:


Quote:
And yes, I am a little ticked that their offer was dealer cost not their cost.
Why?



Smith and Wesson may have contracts in place with "favored nation status" provisions. This means that if they sell handguns at a lower price than the contracted price, this customer would automatically be entitled to the lower price. It's common, especially when dealing with the government.

So it is possible that S&W's hands are tied in terms of pricing. Offering a unit to you, or anyone, at manufacturing cost could trigger all sorts of pricing rollbacks with existing clients, and even rebates on units already bought.
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Old February 19, 2013, 05:53 PM   #50
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Sorry. But I don't buy the poster's logic in here.

Everything you buy with a warranty includes the cost of the warranty in the purchase price. It is the same faulty logic of people not using the health care they get as part of their compensation. If your company stopped providing health care they had previously, they should give you a raise in order to make it fair. The health care is being paid for by the worker.

Same thing with any item with a warranty. If it comes with a warranty, the company has already run a regression figuring out the failure rate, the chance of return, and put that into the cost of the item.

He used supposedly factory ammo. S&W should be taking care of it. If not their fault, they should at least be contacting the main stream ammo manufacture for the buyer.

I would call and ask for a manager.

(all assuming the ammo is regular stuff)
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