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Old February 17, 2013, 06:53 PM   #26
jmr40
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It depends on local law, and how the police and DA interpret them. It can really vary from county to county even though state laws are the same.

Where I live you have a right to defend yourself and family if you feel threatened. It does not have to be inside your home, but proving you were threatened inside the home is easier to justify.

In my county if someone enters your home by force, even if unarmed, they are considered a threat and you will not have any issues. Outdoors, in the streets you still have the same rights, but it may take more time and investigating for local police to be convinced you were threatened. Especially if there are few reliable witnesses to back up your side.

Once an intruder leaves, you are not justified in pursuing, even if they are leaving with your property or money. I understand that is justifiable use of force in a few places.
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Old February 17, 2013, 07:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
Are you automatically going to be arrested?
No. In the state of OK the police may not arrest a person who has shot another person in a home invasion shooting unless police have probable cause the shooter has broken the law.

Quote:
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments

Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Chapter 53 - Manufacture, Sale, and Wearing of Weapons
Oklahoma Firearms Act of 1971
Section 1289.25 - Physical or Deadly Force Against Intruder
Cite as: O.S. ยง, __ __

.....................................................................................................

G. A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force, but the law enforcement agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
[/QUOTE]

The vast majority of home invasion shootings in OK are not prosecuted. Our former prosecutor declined to prosecute one "stand your ground" killing and two home invasion killings in a 18 month period.

This lady was not prosecuted. LEOs bought her a shotgun to replace the one taken as evidence.

http://newsok.com/blanchard-woman-sh...rticle/3636876
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Old February 18, 2013, 12:53 AM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlb435
live in Lousiana; the police practically hand out medals of achievement for shooting home intruders.
I know it's not like that in other states.
Texas; shoot first, questions later.
Massachusetts; you better have six witnesses that swear you had no choice.
Check your state laws and the attitude of law enforcement....
Do you have any actual evidence to support your preposterous comments?
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Old February 18, 2013, 01:36 AM   #29
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OK City Ok area incident; update....

Do any forum members know of any updates or new details about the small business owner(who claimed to be a active duty USAF veteran) that was convicted for shooting 2 armed teen robbers a few years ago?
It was discussed on gun forums a lot but I'm not sure of the end result.
Did he walk? Was the conviction over-turned? I do not live in OK City so I'm out of that news loop.

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Old February 18, 2013, 01:51 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydeFrog
Do any forum members know of any updates or new details about the small business owner(who claimed to be a active duty USAF veteran) that was convicted for shooting 2 armed teen robbers a few years ago?...
You could try helping us out with a name.

The only one who comes to mind is Jerome Ersland. He was convicted of first degree murder and is in prison serving a life sentence. I understand he filed an appeal, which is apparently in process. He has also just recently been charged with having contraband in prison.
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Old February 18, 2013, 02:04 AM   #31
DASHZNT
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Re: If you shoot a home intruder...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jager.30-06 View Post
google castle doctrine. LEO told me keep your attention on the perp, he might get back up. call 911 and keep it short and sweet" someone has been shot, here is my adress, i need police and paramedics here now." hang up the phone. if possible ( if the guy is dead, or ran off) put your weapon down, identify yourself as the resident and comply with all orders. remember to communicate clearly " I was in fear of my life. and that of my family". no, you will not automatically be arrested as long as it wasn't your mother-in-law lol, or someone you have any sort of relation to or with. do not tell the 911 operator "i just killed a guy"..."I blew that fools head off" etc etc. remember you are recorded when you call 911 so don't say anything that could be used against you later...he also said advised me not to watch the guy die then call police, u have the obligation to have help on the way, I can't speak for everyone on this forum but I hope to never have to take a mans life, I will if need be but do not relish the idea like some internet badasses. But if he is still a threat, by all means shoot again!
I completely agree with you on this one buddy. Thats why I have a .44 Magnum ready to protect my family and home. Usuallt after making contact with a perp with one of those rounds, a followup shot isnt necessaey but if so, that will do the trick.

Whar most people dont understand is that its your obligation to seek medical help for the perp. Even though they would have taken your life, it shouldnt be your intention to take theirs.. even though they deserve it. In todays day and age, using a firearm is a big deal and society will definitely judge you and you must defend yourself. First against the perp and additionally against the legal system designed to punish the good citizen, You!

I agree with calling 911 and letting them know to send ambulance and police and youll wait for them, goodbye. Then call attprney and get advice, or better yet.. call your attorney before it even happens so you already have the advice you need for if and when it does occur. Then if you get taken in, the only call they get is to assist you with the bs.
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Old February 18, 2013, 02:09 AM   #32
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Thanks FE....

Yes, that is the same guy....
He shot a young hold up man(or as the NYPD calls them; stick-up kids ). I think the convicted felon also shot at another teen who fled his drug store/pharmacy.
To my limited knowledge, the pharmacist/business owner stood over the wounded teen & shot him repeatedly.

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Old February 18, 2013, 03:29 AM   #33
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Quote:
Call 911, then an attorney. He will advise you as to what to say and do.
Better ask your wife or someone else to call the attorny as the 911 operator will probably keep you on the line until the first responders get there.
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Old February 18, 2013, 04:09 AM   #34
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First, don't shoot anyone unless you have no other way to save your life. When you pull that trigger, you are changing your life forever, too.

Call 911 and report it immediately, then avoid getting shot by the responding officers. Preserve the scene (especially if there are other weapons present), and do what you can to get witnesses to stay or at least obtain contact info.

"It is, what it is": The real world is messy, and the law generally recognizes that. Getting caught in a lie or trying to "spin" the story is worse than having made a mistake, or being in a less than "perfect" scenario. Do not tamper with evidence or attempt to alter anything.

Make a common-sense statement to the authorities (suspect descriptions, what happened in general terms, etc.). After the basic statement, request an attorney be present before more questioning. Expect to go to the police station or even get arrested. Cooperate but don't get drawn into any games (good cop, bad cop, statements to avoid getting arrested, etc.). The detectives are experienced and you are no match for them. They are not your friends, but they are not your enemies, either. Be honest, but keep your mouth shut until you have discussed your case with your lawyer.

Try to get a quick call out to loved ones, and, without going into detail, tell them you've been involved in a shooting, that you're OK, and not to speak to the press. Tell them not to believe everything they hear in the media about the incident.

The rest you'll figure out as you go (statements, depositions, getting sued, etc.).

Last edited by R1145; February 18, 2013 at 04:25 AM.
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Old February 18, 2013, 04:18 AM   #35
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One thing that has not been mentioned here, is you live the rest of your life with that decision. I hope you think about it a lot beforehand and be sure of how you will handle it. If you need to, I hope you do so without hesitation. Just be sure!
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Old February 18, 2013, 04:34 AM   #36
okiewita40
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I know I need to get an updated book of statutes. Mine is from 2004. You could try and google the statutes here in OK to find out both parts of the stand your ground or castle doctrine.
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Old February 18, 2013, 05:56 AM   #37
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Quote:
You defend your life
You defend your family
You defend your propery

You get arrested & prosecuted


That is just sad, that it has turned this way in America,
Where criminals have more say & rights than you
The problem here is that you are assuming the shooter is necessarily the good guy, that the shootee is necessarily the bad guy, and that such information is clearly obvious to law enforcement.

After a crime occurs and law enforcement arrives, they are often faced with a myriad of information, some of it conflicting, some of it potentially evening appearing to be admissions of laws broken by the purported good guy or desbribed by witnesses. Sometimes the story given by the purported good guy doesn't match the evidence.

That the purported good guy gets arrested as has to go through the whole legal process is called "due process."

As noted in OK, you won't necessarily get arrested. I would not count on not getting arrested. In fact, I would go ahead and assume that you will likely be arrested until which time you make bail or the cops figure out that you aren't the bad guy. Hopefully, that will be resolved quickly.
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Old February 18, 2013, 08:05 AM   #38
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WTVR reported a home invasion last night near our farm.

Quote:
The caller reported that three people with weapons entered his house and exchanged gun shots.
http://wtvr.com/2013/02/17/prospect-...home-invasion/

There have been a few of these recently. So far, the only after effects has been a weeding out of a certain gene pool. I think 90% of homeowners here are armed and we all know they keep trying this for some reason.
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Old February 18, 2013, 12:12 PM   #39
pax
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ClydeFrog ~

You can read everything that happened w the Jerome Erslund case, including the raw video from three different angles, here: http://newsok.com/pharmacyshootings

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Old February 18, 2013, 01:54 PM   #40
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Every year the local gun club gets together with the DA, prosecuting and defense attorneys, firearms experts and others and holds a public symposium on the use of lethal force. These events are well attended.

Law enforcement and defense attorneys have a slightly different point of view when it comes to what the shooter should say after the incident. One thing the defense attorney said that the police didn't refute was that there are many people in jail because they spoke without the presence of an attorney.

Since you're innocent until proven guilty, best to say nothing or as little as possible.
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Old February 18, 2013, 02:18 PM   #41
lcpiper
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Guys keep one thing in mind here.

Reading what to do, or knowing what to do is all fine.

But doing it after you just put a couple of rounds into a guy who is now dead in your house, perhaps with your family inside with you, that is a different thing.

If you have never experience what "going into shock" means then you know what I am talking about. The adrenaline can help you fight it off for awhile and maybe the situation, having family who needs you right then, that might help. But some folks, they finish calling 911, hang up and sit down to wait for the cops, and quietly just zone out and become incapable of reason or correct action. Heck you could actually die just from going into shock. That's where the term "scared to death" comes from.

I suggest you really understand just how important it is for you to recognize how important it is for you not to allow yourself to fall into a state of shock.
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Old February 18, 2013, 04:45 PM   #42
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Stress related cardiomyopathy.

Just reading about it today.
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Old February 18, 2013, 05:00 PM   #43
lcpiper
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From experience I can say what I felt as it was happening to the best of my memory.

I witnessed a really bad accident and everything that could be done was being done as we all waited for an ambulance. A guy said I should sit down so I did.

As soon as I sat down my mind just started to stop thinking. You know how a really complex machine might have a dozen or more switches and gauges and a specific order to start and stop it ?

It was like someone was performing a shutdown sequence on my mind. All I know is I woke up in the hospital, I remember nothing in between. I don't know if I passed out, or if I was questioned, or anything at all really. So be ready cause it sure can happen and adrenaline is only good for so long.

Short, shallow breaths, dry mouth, a dislocated feeling, that's about all the warning you will get, ohh, and someone suggesting that you sit down.
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Old February 18, 2013, 06:12 PM   #44
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Jager.30-06, I'm in OKC.
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Old February 18, 2013, 10:31 PM   #45
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While its been covered a bit previously, I will add... Cover the W's and the one H.

Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How.

Who?

"I live here, he ( the guy injured) broke in"

What?

"I live here, and was (watching TV or surfing the internet, etc)"

When?

"After it happened I pulled my cell phone from my pocket and called 911 for help, here, let me confirm the time I called 911 for you on my phone. I called as soon as it was over"

Where?

"I live here (alone, with family, wife or kids, or this is my work, etc)"

Why?

"He forced his way in by (insert here, he kicked in the door, or broke the window and crawled in) and since he did so, I was in fear. I was in the (insert room) and then I wound out in the (insert room) when it was over"

How?

" I (shot, stabbed, etc) him with this, and I saw his weapon (fall under him, roll off, or picked up by another)"

Then say, I am shook up, I need to get myself together, and I think its best to speak with a lawyer...

What does this do?

It shows you are initially being co-operative to law enfrocement. It also shows you are trying to show WHY you did what you did, as well as how, and what may have happened to the person who broke in your home's weapon, or the evidence of a weapon.


As far as calling 911 and then a lawyer, here you wont typically have that chance. The telecommunicater will do their best to keep you online until law enforcement arrive, while trying to relay your communications to the responding officers.

Many folks say dont talk to law enforcement... I say bull... You have to give basic information, because the responding law enforcement are responding to not only a home invasion, but if you defended yourself, a possible murder, and they will, at least initially treat it as such. Self defense, depending on your views, is an excusible homicide. The responding officers will treat it as a homicide (or at least they should) and then go from there. Your (as a victim) statements, albeit brief, should point out that you are a victim, and why, and your incredibly brief actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
I don't know about your lawyer - but you will get an answering service in the middle of the night - unless you have a personal number that said lawyer will pick up.
And when you get the answering machine, and you are asked questions as to why there is a dead person there, and you are here doing (whatever you said to 911) you may have a long night until your lawyer checks his messages...

Once you give a brief statement, you will be understandably shook up, and need time to compose yourself and hopefully speak with a lawyer. This time to compose yourself and speak with a lawyer can vary from being secured by another officer, to being cuffed and placed in a car, or in the extreme case, possibly held overnight. Afterwards, when you are questioned you will be given your rights, and asked if you want a lawyer, (possibly they may ask you to sign a statement that you wave your rights) then from there its up to the officers and their respective viewpoints after your initial statement and the evidence.

Think for a moment...If you were a police officer responding, what would you think? Would you prefer a brief statement, or would you (as a police officer) want to be met immediatly with "I want my lawyer before I make any statement."

By the time your lawyer arrives, some of the evidence may have already been moved or even destroyed...

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; February 18, 2013 at 10:46 PM.
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Old February 19, 2013, 01:23 AM   #46
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I watched a great video a few years back by a criminal defense attorney speaking on this topic. He proved that there is literally nothing you can say to the police that will help you in any way. Any and all information you give to the police will only be used to build a case against you. The scene speaks for itself. If the prosecution decides to prosecute you based on an erroneous interpretation of the evidence, it is not your expertise to contradict the interpretation. That is your attorney's job. You will do nothing but screw yourself over and weaken your defense. Keep your mouth shut. I'm paraphrasing, but here is the jist of what he recommended:

If you are in fear for your life, there is no choice but to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. Dial 911, but do not answer whatever questions the dispatcher is asking.

1. My name is (your name) and I just shot an intruder in my home because I was in fear for my life and that of my family.

2. The intruder is down. everyone else is safe. Please dispatch emergency personnel immediately to (your address).

3. Please advise the police that I am a (brief description of yourself) and that I am placing the gun down away from my person. My (other family members) are here and I will have them wait (safe location in the home). Everyone is unarmed and safe.

At this point, the dispatcher is going to try and get you to elaborate. Do not give any more information for any reason. Politely tell him/her that you are hanging up now and will wait for the police to arrive, and thank them for their help. If you don't want to hang up, answer any of her questions with, "I wish I could be more helpful, but I will need to speak with my attorney before saying anything further."

When the police arrive, here is the information the police require:

1. Tell them who you are, where the rest of your family is, and that no one else is injured.
2. Tell them where the perp is, if it isn't obvious.
3. Tell them where the firearm is.
4. Tell them you feared for your life and that of your family.

It does not matter what information the cops are asking for, or any other questions they might have. Give them the above information, and the above information only. Do not give any other information for any reason.

The police will continue to ask questions, and pressure you to elaborate. Reply to any and all of their questions with "I wish I could be more helpful, but I will need to speak with my attorney before saying anything further." It doesn't matter how many additional questions the cops ask, just respond to each one with the exact same phrase. They will get the message. Also... you are going downtown. Whether you are smart, and keep your mouth shut, or you try and talk the cops heads off about how you're a law abiding citizen to keep from going downtown.

Make sure your family knows this as well. Drill and practice the police interrogation scenario with them, because you will not be in a state of mind to think on your feet if you end up in this situation. Never, EVER speak to the police. Your attorney is your voice.
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Old February 19, 2013, 07:51 AM   #47
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Quote:
Posted by coachteet: I watched a great video a few years back by a criminal defense attorney speaking on this topic. He proved that there is literally nothing you can say to the police that will help you in any way. Any and all information you give to the police will only be used to build a case against you. The scene speaks for itself. If the prosecution decides to prosecute you based on an erroneous interpretation of the evidence, it is not your expertise to contradict the interpretation. That is your attorney's job. You will do nothing but screw yourself over and weaken your defense. Keep your mouth shut.
As Frank Ettin has already taken the trouble to explain in one of the links in Post 11, the advice in that widely distributed video was not intended for self defense cases.

The advice applies when it is the duty of the state to prove that you did the deed.

In a self defense case, you must necessarily admit to having done the deed, and you must produce evidence that you were lawfully justified in having done so.

The evidence at the scene and witnesses may disappear forever if they are not pointed, out, and since very few shootings in the out of doors do involve self defense, there is no reason to expect arriving officers to look for it.

In a home intrusion the evidence may be obvious, but relying on inapplicable advice in a self defense case that occurs elsewhere could seal one's fate.

In a home invasion, the evidence may be obvious, but perhaps not all of it. Should there be no evidence of breakage I would probably want to point out where the person shot came in, and I would certainly want to point out whether I knew of any others who had fled.

And frankly, I question the advantage of saying "I feared for my life,"
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Old February 19, 2013, 11:40 AM   #48
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dajowi
...Since you're innocent until proven guilty, best to say nothing or as little as possible.
Understand that when you claim self defense, the presumption of innocence is turned on its head. You will necessarily admit that you intentionally shot someone. That would ordinarily be what the prosecutor would have to prove, but you will be admitting it. Your defense against criminal liability for you intentional act of extreme violence against another human will be that it was legally justified.
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Old February 19, 2013, 12:48 PM   #49
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Making a claim of self-defense means you will have to show evidence of the crime committed against you -- the one that made it necessary for you to shoot.

If the responding officers do not hear about that crime, they won't investigate it or look for evidence that it happened.

Without evidence of the crime committed against you, you'll have a much harder time defending your use of deadly force. "Self-defense" falls down as a claim if there wasn't anything for you to defend against.

Be a good witness. Tell the arriving officers there was a crime committed against you. Point out evidence and witnesses. Then shut up.

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Old February 19, 2013, 12:59 PM   #50
DaleA
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Kraigwy mentioned something I thought was interesting...getting insurance.

Can you GET insurance to cover your legal fees in case you are involved in a shooting? This could be very beneficial.
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