film short research(1858/1863pocket/Rogers&Spencer)

parsley.farm · February 12, 2013, 02:11 AM

I'm doing some research for a film...Which is the 'easiest' (read-most cinematic) to change cylinders, the Remington/Pietta New Model (1858), the Remington/Pietta 1863 Pocket, or the Euroarms Rogers & Spencer? I've handled a New Model Army by Pietta that seemed a little difficult to unlatch the ramrod but not allow it to go into the cylinder, half-cock it so the bottom 'dog' exits the notch in the side of the cylinder, and ? to get the spur to exit the back of the cylinder, all the while trying to pull forward on the 'wedge' of the spindle/shaft of the cylinder...all at the same time??? I've never touched the 1863 Pocket or the Rogers&Spencer.

-Jim
ParsleyFarmMotionPictures

Willie Sutton · February 12, 2013, 11:01 AM

Any of the 1858 pattern Remington copies can be swapped out in a few seconds, once they are broken in, and once the user knows how to rotate the cylinder into it's position. I can do it by feel with my Uberti copies in about five seconds (if I am not afraid to drop the old cylinder onto a blanket under my feet... it takes as much time to stow the old cylinder as it does to load the new one). Sadly I don't have a two-compartment cylinder pouch as would be needed to do this rapidly and have a place to put the old one.

I am sure you have seen the scene in Pale Rider where Clint Eastwood does this exact thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQuKXGOoqUc

The key is a double pouch, with one empty compartment to receive the removed cylinder and the other with a prepared cylinder laying in wait. Otherwise you most certainly need three hands, or a pocket that you don't mind getting filthy with black powder residue.

NOBODY as far as I know has ever come up with any historical references to this actually being done though... We all just want to look like Clint.

If I were setting up a shoot for the screen, first... I would not use Pietta, as the barrel markings will be a giveaway if the lighting is not carefully done or if there are any close up shots. I'd use Uberti. Second, I would not hesitate to take said Uberti and stone a few of the surfaces to slick it up for smoothness. A brand new one will be stiff, and a few thousandths of an inch stoned off of the Hand (the part that rotates the cylinder) makes life a lot easier. A little crocus cloth on the arbor and some valve grinding compound spread on the meshing parts and then cycling it a hundred times before cleaning the valve grinding compound out of the thing will fit the moving parts about the same as a decade of hard use...

Willie

.

Bishop Creek · February 12, 2013, 12:21 PM

Check out this video: "Remington 1858 rapidfire"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kqEgijuCu4

Willie Sutton · February 12, 2013, 12:32 PM

^^^ Nice...

Now to load for a half hour...

Willie

.

maillemaker · February 12, 2013, 12:54 PM

Quote:

I've handled a New Model Army by Pietta that seemed a little difficult to unlatch the ramrod but not allow it to go into the cylinder, half-cock it so the bottom 'dog' exits the notch in the side of the cylinder, and ? to get the spur to exit the back of the cylinder, all the while trying to pull forward on the 'wedge' of the spindle/shaft of the cylinder...all at the same time???

I noticed the same problem with my new 1858 Pietta. The cylinder spindle shaft was difficult to pull out and difficult to re-engage. This seems to have loosened up after firing 100 or so rounds.

I find it best to cock the hammer just enough so that both the hammer itself and the hand are withdrawn into the frame of the gun. Then the cylinder drops out freely and installs freely. This is not half-cock but somewhat less than that I think.

It can be a bit fiddly to keep the loading ram from dropping into one of the cylinder bores during extraction, but I find it helpful to allow it to do so during re-installation as it helps align the cylinder for the spindle. But this is with an empty cylinder where the ram has someplace to go. This might not be true with a loaded cylinder depending on how deep your balls are set.

Steve

deerslayer303 · February 12, 2013, 01:27 PM

Quote:

I find it best to cock the hammer just enough so that both the hammer itself and the hand are withdrawn into the frame of the gun. Then the cylinder drops out freely and installs freely.

Absolutely, without doing so, you have to give the cylinder a little clockwise turn to "roll it into the hand" so to speak. Cylinder pouches as Willie suggests would make the process so much easier. I personally leave it in the half cock position, I've gotten used to just giving the cylinder a little turn to mesh with the hand. And Willie is right again, about the huge markings on Pietta Firearms. But another Suggestion is Cimmeron Firearms, the markings on those are so tiny they are hard to see even holding the pistol up close. They also have different finishes to pick from, depending on what look you may be going for.

Smokin'Joe · February 12, 2013, 01:51 PM

Use a Colt like Little Joe Cartwright about 3 minutes into this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoIXQ...eature=related

Willie Sutton · February 12, 2013, 01:58 PM

But another Suggestion is Cimmeron Firearms

Which are just Uberti's... with a small additional marking "Address Cimmaron Fitchberg TX" on the top of the barrel.

The Uberti's that Taylors and Stoeger import are identical save for their being no visible external markings.

To summarize:

Two makers, Pietta and Uberti.

One importer of Piettas, and all of them are garishly marked on both sides of the barrel.

Three importers of Ubertis, one with a small marking on top of the barrel (Cimmaron) and the other two (Taylors and Stoeger) unmarked.

Willie

.

maillemaker · February 12, 2013, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Use a Colt like Little Joe Cartwright about 3 minutes into this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoIXQ...eature=related

Cool! He sure drops that wedge easy!

Steve

Smokin'Joe · February 12, 2013, 03:02 PM

A Colt shooter could tap the wedge out with the front or side of the loaded cylinder. (Remember this is a gunfight. You won't be worried about scratching your pretty cylinder) A properly setup Colt wedge comes out easily. After swapping cylinders a gentle tap with the empty cylinder resets the wedge. Faster and more elegant than a Remington. Look at the clip again. About 3 min. and 30 sec. into it Hoss is fumbling with his clunky Remington. Who wants to see that?

maillemaker · February 12, 2013, 03:39 PM

Yeah, till you drop that wedge and it falls into a crack in the floorboards!

Who wants to take their gun to pieces to load it?

Steve

Smokin'Joe · February 12, 2013, 03:53 PM

A properly setup Colt retains the wedge with the wedge spring and screw. My experience with Remingtons (both original & repos) is that a hammer is required to remove the cylinder pin due to fouling. A spare cylinder is worthless if you can't get the empty one out.

deerslayer303 · February 12, 2013, 05:15 PM

Sitting in my favorite chair with an Orville Redenbacher's pop bag of popcorn. Reading another episode of Colt vs. Remington!!

parsley.farm · February 12, 2013, 05:16 PM

Would the 1863 pocket be exactly the same to swap cylinders as the 1858? Also, on the Rogers & Spencer...Is it similar? I thought I read that it has a screw to turn out to swap. Anyone know how long that would take?

deerslayer303 · February 12, 2013, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Would the 1863 pocket be exactly the same to swap cylinders as the 1858? Also, on the Rogers & Spencer...Is it similar? I thought I read that it has a screw to turn out to swap. Anyone know how long that would take?

I can't help on the Rogers And Spencer, but yes the 1863 operates the same way as its big brother. Just a smaller scale and no trigger guard.

Smokin'Joe · February 12, 2013, 06:56 PM

Little Joe was a Colt man. Hoss was a Remington guy. I don't know about you guys but when Bonanza was in first run I wanted to be like Little Joe. All the girls liked him. Hoss, not so much.

Hawg Haggen · February 12, 2013, 08:03 PM

A Colt wedge pops in and out with thumb pressure.

Roshi · February 12, 2013, 08:31 PM

I'd say the Starr revolver is quicker to swap cylinders than either a Remmie or a Colt.

Gaucho Gringo · February 13, 2013, 06:40 PM

I think Adam has a 1860 Colt Richards conversion in this clip.

Gaucho Gringo · February 13, 2013, 06:48 PM

I think Adam has a 1860 Colt Richards conversion in this clip.

10851Man · February 13, 2013, 08:24 PM

Tell us more about your movie plans....

sltm1 · February 13, 2013, 09:01 PM

I gotta agree on the Starr being the easiest, it was designed to be. But my favorite gun, the Rogers and Spencer can be the easiest to swap cylinders on out of the other 3 choices. For one thing, bp NEVER fouls the cylinder pin because of the bushing on the front of the cylinder and with a slight modification, you can line up the cylinder pin retaining screw as fast as fast (see pic). When the lever soldered on the screw is turned counter clockwise, it stops on the projecting pin and you're good to go. The only problem is that if you pull it out too far the entire cylinder pin and loading lever assembly comes out when removing the cylinder...just takes some practice not to do that.

Doc Hoy · February 14, 2013, 12:40 AM

Check out Duelist's video on the 1866 Remington Revolver Carbine. In that video, Mike pulls the cylinder on that carbine, which is essentially an 1858 Remington with about the max smoothness I have ever seen. Almost like Eastwood in Pale Rider (Different revolver, but still quite smooth)

10851Man · February 14, 2013, 04:50 PM

@ Smokin Joe:

Looks like Lil' Joe was reloading a cartridge conversion Colt...

Smokin'Joe · February 14, 2013, 09:07 PM

Could be but it's still an open top Colt.

February 12, 2013, 02:11 AM	#1
parsley.farm Junior Member Join Date: February 11, 2013 Posts: 11	film short research(1858/1863pocket/Rogers&Spencer) I'm doing some research for a film...Which is the 'easiest' (read-most cinematic) to change cylinders, the Remington/Pietta New Model (1858), the Remington/Pietta 1863 Pocket, or the Euroarms Rogers & Spencer? I've handled a New Model Army by Pietta that seemed a little difficult to unlatch the ramrod but not allow it to go into the cylinder, half-cock it so the bottom 'dog' exits the notch in the side of the cylinder, and ? to get the spur to exit the back of the cylinder, all the while trying to pull forward on the 'wedge' of the spindle/shaft of the cylinder...all at the same time??? I've never touched the 1863 Pocket or the Rogers&Spencer. -Jim ParsleyFarmMotionPictures

February 12, 2013, 05:15 PM	#13
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: McMinnville TN Posts: 1,116	Sitting in my favorite chair with an Orville Redenbacher's pop bag of popcorn. Reading another episode of Colt vs. Remington!! __________________ "You're so drunk you cant hit nothin, In fact you're probably seeing double"...."I have TWO GUNS one for each of ya"

February 12, 2013, 05:16 PM	#14
parsley.farm Junior Member Join Date: February 11, 2013 Posts: 11	1863 pocket Would the 1863 pocket be exactly the same to swap cylinders as the 1858? Also, on the Rogers & Spencer...Is it similar? I thought I read that it has a screw to turn out to swap. Anyone know how long that would take?

February 12, 2013, 08:03 PM	#17
Hawg Haggen Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 10,238	A Colt wedge pops in and out with thumb pressure. __________________ http://blackpowdertimes.com/index.php

February 12, 2013, 08:31 PM	#18
Roshi Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2010 Location: Houston Posts: 154	Let me muddy this up I'd say the Starr revolver is quicker to swap cylinders than either a Remmie or a Colt.

February 12, 2013, 11:01 AM	#2
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	Any of the 1858 pattern Remington copies can be swapped out in a few seconds, once they are broken in, and once the user knows how to rotate the cylinder into it's position. I can do it by feel with my Uberti copies in about five seconds (if I am not afraid to drop the old cylinder onto a blanket under my feet... it takes as much time to stow the old cylinder as it does to load the new one). Sadly I don't have a two-compartment cylinder pouch as would be needed to do this rapidly and have a place to put the old one. I am sure you have seen the scene in Pale Rider where Clint Eastwood does this exact thing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQuKXGOoqUc The key is a double pouch, with one empty compartment to receive the removed cylinder and the other with a prepared cylinder laying in wait. Otherwise you most certainly need three hands, or a pocket that you don't mind getting filthy with black powder residue. NOBODY as far as I know has ever come up with any historical references to this actually being done though... We all just want to look like Clint. If I were setting up a shoot for the screen, first... I would not use Pietta, as the barrel markings will be a giveaway if the lighting is not carefully done or if there are any close up shots. I'd use Uberti. Second, I would not hesitate to take said Uberti and stone a few of the surfaces to slick it up for smoothness. A brand new one will be stiff, and a few thousandths of an inch stoned off of the Hand (the part that rotates the cylinder) makes life a lot easier. A little crocus cloth on the arbor and some valve grinding compound spread on the meshing parts and then cycling it a hundred times before cleaning the valve grinding compound out of the thing will fit the moving parts about the same as a decade of hard use... Willie .

February 12, 2013, 12:21 PM	#3
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 196	Check out this video: "Remington 1858 rapidfire" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kqEgijuCu4

February 12, 2013, 12:32 PM	#4
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	^^^ Nice... Now to load for a half hour... Willie .

February 12, 2013, 01:51 PM	#7
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 101	Use a Colt like Little Joe Cartwright about 3 minutes into this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoIXQ...eature=related

February 12, 2013, 01:58 PM	#8
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	But another Suggestion is Cimmeron Firearms Which are just Uberti's... with a small additional marking "Address Cimmaron Fitchberg TX" on the top of the barrel. The Uberti's that Taylors and Stoeger import are identical save for their being no visible external markings. To summarize: Two makers, Pietta and Uberti. One importer of Piettas, and all of them are garishly marked on both sides of the barrel. Three importers of Ubertis, one with a small marking on top of the barrel (Cimmaron) and the other two (Taylors and Stoeger) unmarked. Willie .

February 12, 2013, 03:02 PM	#10
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 101	A Colt shooter could tap the wedge out with the front or side of the loaded cylinder. (Remember this is a gunfight. You won't be worried about scratching your pretty cylinder) A properly setup Colt wedge comes out easily. After swapping cylinders a gentle tap with the empty cylinder resets the wedge. Faster and more elegant than a Remington. Look at the clip again. About 3 min. and 30 sec. into it Hoss is fumbling with his clunky Remington. Who wants to see that?

February 12, 2013, 03:39 PM	#11
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 564	Yeah, till you drop that wedge and it falls into a crack in the floorboards! Who wants to take their gun to pieces to load it? Steve

February 12, 2013, 03:53 PM	#12
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 101	A properly setup Colt retains the wedge with the wedge spring and screw. My experience with Remingtons (both original & repos) is that a hammer is required to remove the cylinder pin due to fouling. A spare cylinder is worthless if you can't get the empty one out.

February 12, 2013, 06:56 PM	#16
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 101	Little Joe was a Colt man. Hoss was a Remington guy. I don't know about you guys but when Bonanza was in first run I wanted to be like Little Joe. All the girls liked him. Hoss, not so much.

February 13, 2013, 06:40 PM	#19
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 152	I think Adam has a 1860 Colt Richards conversion in this clip. __________________ .357 Taurus Gaucho, .22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 .44 NMA Remingtons, Euroarms & ASM .36 1851 Navies, .31 Uberti Baby Dragoon, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, .43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, .44 ASM Colt Walker, .36 1862 Pocket Police 2 1\2", High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 .22, Rossi 62 .22 rifle, Uberti 1860 and IJ .32 S&W BreakTop, .36 Euroarms 1858, .32 S&W long H&R

February 13, 2013, 06:48 PM	#20
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 152	I think Adam has a 1860 Colt Richards conversion in this clip. __________________ .357 Taurus Gaucho, .22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 .44 NMA Remingtons, Euroarms & ASM .36 1851 Navies, .31 Uberti Baby Dragoon, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, .43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, .44 ASM Colt Walker, .36 1862 Pocket Police 2 1\2", High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 .22, Rossi 62 .22 rifle, Uberti 1860 and IJ .32 S&W BreakTop, .36 Euroarms 1858, .32 S&W long H&R

February 13, 2013, 08:24 PM	#21
10851Man Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: High Desert Mountains CA. Posts: 410	Tell us more about your movie plans....

February 14, 2013, 12:40 AM	#23
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Chesapeake, VA Posts: 3,347	Here is a potential alternative... Check out Duelist's video on the 1866 Remington Revolver Carbine. In that video, Mike pulls the cylinder on that carbine, which is essentially an 1858 Remington with about the max smoothness I have ever seen. Almost like Eastwood in Pale Rider (Different revolver, but still quite smooth) __________________ Doc My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson

February 14, 2013, 04:50 PM	#24
10851Man Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: High Desert Mountains CA. Posts: 410	@ Smokin Joe: Looks like Lil' Joe was reloading a cartridge conversion Colt...

February 14, 2013, 09:07 PM	#25
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 101	Could be but it's still an open top Colt.