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Old December 23, 2012, 09:37 PM   #1
tmorone
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Un-SBR'ing a rifle

Question to the guys that are a little more experienced with NFA stuff...

I picked up a 9" upper the other day to mate with a (new, never been a rifle) lower I've had laying around, and got to wondering...

Once you create an SBR on a Form 1, can you ever take it back down to a full length 'Title one' firearm? I ask because the options are either build this thing as a pistol or send in a Form 1.

My major concern is, I eventually plan to move to and retire in Washington state- where SBR's are a no-go. I'm wondering if upon a move I could just "un-sbr" the thing and take it out of the NFA category or once it's registered as SBR is it a done deal?
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Old December 24, 2012, 08:44 AM   #2
Willie Lowman
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Yes. I know that you can have a SBR removed from the registry.

I don't know what, if any, paperwork you have to submit. Never felt the need to have any of my short barrels get longer. I do know it can be done, I have seen a Uzi that was un-SBRed for sale in the past.
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Old December 24, 2012, 10:12 AM   #3
tmorone
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Great, thanks Willie!
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Old December 24, 2012, 02:25 PM   #4
James K
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You simply write a letter to BATFE with the serial number of the registered gun, explaining that you have replaced the short barrel with a long one, and requesting that the rifle be removed from the NFRTR. They will reply either that that has been done or advise you if there is anything else you need to do.

But I am a bit confused. You have a 9" barrel upper, and you have a lower that it fits, so you already have an SBR and it is not registered. You should have obtained Form 1 approval before buying the upper. I hope I am wrong, but it looks like you have already violated the law.

Jim
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Old December 24, 2012, 06:53 PM   #5
Beretta686
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Quote:
But I am a bit confused. You have a 9" barrel upper, and you have a lower that it fits, so you already have an SBR and it is not registered. You should have obtained Form 1 approval before buying the upper. I hope I am wrong, but it looks like you have already violated the law.
He could be in violation provided the lower was a compete lower configured as a rifle in the same location as his 9-inch upper.

But if it's a stripped lower without anything else (also notice he said "new, never been a rifle") it can't really an SBR as you could assemble it into a pistol. Also they'd have to be in the same location. If you own an under-16 inch upper, but it's at friend's house while your lower is at your house, it's kinda hard to prove "constructive possession".

I wouldn't be strolling around a gunshow with it baiting the bear so to say, but I doubt the black helicopters will descend upon your place for having a 9-inch upper and a stripped lower. Unless you have a bunch of other unregistered lowers laying around.
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Old December 24, 2012, 06:53 PM   #6
Brian Pfleuger
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I'm not sure, but I'd be somewhat surprised if Washington State cares if the rifle is registered as an SBR. I would guess that as long as it's not actually configured as an SBR while it's in the state, you'd be fine. Consult an NFA experienced attorney, would be my suggestion.
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Old December 24, 2012, 08:58 PM   #7
tmorone
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Thanks for stepping in and clarifying Beretta686, you pretty much nailed what I've got going on.

The only spare lower I had sitting around was stripped, but I had all the parts to assemble it as a pistol (including the slick-sided pistol buffer tube). Didn't have a stock or 6-position tube. However, James made a good point about the constructive possession thing so I just slapped it together as a pistol and all the rifle building doors remain open in the future.

Just to make it totally clear, I know better than to assemble any sort of Title II firearm- even if in the privacy of my own home. Prison sounds like no fun.

Brian, that's a great idea that hadn't crossed my mind. I think ultimately what I'll do will be to send off the Form 1 and take the future as it comes- whether it involves a good NFA lawyer or a sad letter to the ATF.
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Old January 11, 2013, 09:46 AM   #8
Rosser
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C96 with new shoulder stock

My question is how to go the other way: non-SBR to SBR?
So how do I fill out the ATF Form for a SBR and which form is it?
Many years ago I bought a C96. Before the rules changed, I bought a non-original shoulder stock from another dealer. Therefore I did not buy a complete SBR from a dealer who could help with the Forms. Note: while I own the shoulder stock, at present I do not possess it (my daughter has it at her house in another city).
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Old January 11, 2013, 07:16 PM   #9
tmorone
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Download a Form 1 from the ATF and send that in to the address on the paper in duplicate (two copies) along with a certificate of compliance (5330.20). A GREAT video that tells you how to fill out said Form 1 can be found in the blog tab at silencedamerica.com

If you use a trust you have to include a copy of that. If it's a CLEO sign off you have to do all that paperwork instead of the trust.

Slip in the $200.00 check and wait 6 months.

Hope that helps.
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:40 AM   #10
Rosser
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SBR'ing

I had been looking at ATF Form 4 and was totally confused. ATF 1 is the one, obviously.
Many thanks,
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:42 PM   #11
tmorone
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Anytime.

I can see how that would get confusing. The F4 would be if you were buying a factory-made SBR. But since you're putting it together...
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Old January 12, 2013, 10:06 PM   #12
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tmorone, has your "stripped" lower EVER been assembled into a rifle? EVER?
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Old January 13, 2013, 08:50 PM   #13
tmorone
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Medalguy, nope. Never ever ever.
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Old January 21, 2013, 04:05 PM   #14
Rosser
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Like a kid, I take the easiest answer

I consulted my local police (I'm a graduate of their Citizen's Police Academy) for assistance with the fingerprint card and CLEO signature. My contact went further and consulted Classic Firearms here at the Beach. The answer, transmitted to me by the police, was: the C96 with any shoulder stock is still a C&R and not subject to registration - the application would be sent back without action by the ATF. So anytime I wander around with my C&R, I will take the emails with me.
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Old January 30, 2013, 06:38 PM   #15
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Someone posted over at THR or m4carbine.net a letter from the ATF about removing a < 16" upper from a registered SBR lower... the reply from the ATF was that by removing the short upper and replacing the upper with a >= 16" upper, the rifle was no longer under purview of the NFA. The letter also stated that if the change was permanent, a letter should be written to the NFA branch requesting the lower be removed from the registry.
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Old February 26, 2013, 12:24 PM   #16
eodinert
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In the NFA handbook, published by ATF, it explains that all NFA guns are NFA by configuration, except for machine guns.

Meaning an AOW, SBR, etc, are only such because they have the features that make them so. If you remove those features, they are no longer regulated by ATF.

Put a 16 inch barrel on a stamped SBR, sell it, no longer an SBR. There is no requirement to notify anyone. You can send a letter to 'remove it from the registry', that they are not obligated to knowledge receipt of, and you might get a response saying 'ok' in 6 months to a year.

If you move interstate with a weapon in the NFA registry, you must notify ATF by law. Having said that, by ATF's own words, put a 16 inch barrel on it, and it's not NFA, so move to a non-sbr state with it (I personally would not take it off the registry). Just make sure you don't have a short barreled upper, unless you have a lawful AR pistol that it goes on.

Thompson Center vs. USA established that if your pile of parts can be assembled into a lawful weapon, that the government cannot assume you are going to make an illegal weapon with it.

Do lots more reading. Be careful who you listen to, as there are a lot of 'experts' that are not.

Don't listen to me, or any other experts. Read, read, read and read some more. Then, do some more reading.
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Old February 28, 2013, 04:16 PM   #17
tepin
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Yes. Two methods.
1. Remove the stock from the tube and you have a pistol (you dont need a "pistol" tube); or
2. Replace the upper with a 16" barrel and you have a long-gun

If you intend the change to be permanent, the NFA branch requests that you send a letter asking to remove the receiver from the NFA register.

If you do #1 you'll probably want to sell the stock
If you do #2 you'll probably want to sell the upper or buy a pistol receiver

Quote:
Question to the guys that are a little more experienced with NFA stuff...

I picked up a 9" upper the other day to mate with a (new, never been a rifle) lower I've had laying around, and got to wondering...

Once you create an SBR on a Form 1, can you ever take it back down to a full length 'Title one' firearm? I ask because the options are either build this thing as a pistol or send in a Form 1.

My major concern is, I eventually plan to move to and retire in Washington state- where SBR's are a no-go. I'm wondering if upon a move I could just "un-sbr" the thing and take it out of the NFA category or once it's registered as SBR is it a done deal?
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Old February 28, 2013, 06:19 PM   #18
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the part with thompson center is a touchy issue still even with legal precedence proving we not the gov't are in the right, but they can still throw you in the pokey and force you to go through a long legal process even if you are still found to be right...

for that part i always have a rifle config and a seperate receiver in a pistol config for my own piece of mind.

same is with my AR's until i did go get one of my lowers registered as an SBR... even though i had 2 lowers that were labeled as pistols...

i choose not to take chances with having to deal with the BATF even if i am in the right... you can't argue with STUPID even thought you are right... only lawyers in a court of law can argue the points and prove you are right... sad but true.
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Old February 28, 2013, 06:31 PM   #19
Brian Pfleuger
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Un-SBR'ing a rifle

On the T/C Encore/Contender issue, ATF has finally caved on their idiocy. Word has been slow to get out, but it's official:

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ing-2011-4.pdf
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Old February 28, 2013, 07:14 PM   #20
UniversalFrost
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based upon this guidance the field agent is still open to their initial interpretation of the law based upon what evidence at the scene they deem relevant.. it is up to the individual to prove their innocence in a court of law....


so lots of $$$ to prove that you are right ... not the first time i have seen this document discussed.
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Old March 2, 2013, 03:04 PM   #21
eodinert
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ATF holds that removing the stock from a rifle does not make a pistol... it makes a rifle without a stock. Removing the stock from an SBR would make an SBR without a stock.

The confusion in this area comes in part from the fact that if you have a pistol, you can convert it to a rifle, and back to a pistol, lawfully. You cannot convert a rifle to a pistol, ever, so far as I can tell. You can pay $200 and make a 'weapon made from a rifle', but not a pistol.

So, to the OP, unless you have lots of evidence that your rifle started out as a pistol, I wouldn't go that route.
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