The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 13, 2013, 01:13 PM   #1
jdl
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2013
Posts: 3
ak47

A couple of weeks ago, I shot one for the first time. We had several guns, target shooting. I shot the ak47 about five times and three times I double tapped it. The two shots sounded like a full auto. I don't know what I was doing wrong? The other person had no problem with single shot. I guess I had a light trigger pull and recoil caused me to double pull?

Also, the site plain is so low, With the stock into my shoulder, I had to crank my head over about 90 degrees trying to line up the sites. Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks
jdl is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 02:36 PM   #2
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,479
You might have inadvertently 'bump fired' it, meaning the trigger was allowed to bounce with recoil. Next time hold the trigger back when firing. The Garand has a similar issue and I actually had a couple double taps early on when I first bought it.

As for the sight picture, I'm having a hard time understanding your problem. Just press your cheek on the stock, raise up to eye level. Does it have the standard wood stock or something else?
chris in va is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 02:42 PM   #3
Fishbed77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 2,588
If it was a true AK-47, then it has a full-auto select-fire trigger. You may have had the selector lever only half-way down in the full-autop setting.

My guess, however, is that it was a semi-automatic AK clone. In that case, it sounds like you may have been jerking the trigger or uninentionally bump-firing the trigger. The other option is a malfunction of the fire control group, but since you said this only happened with you firing it, we have to assume it was the shooter.

The standard "Warsaw-length" stock of an AK can be short for a lot of taller Western shooters. However, I am 6'-1" with long arms, and I find that I can acheive proper cheeck weld and sight alignment by holding the butt of the stock about 1.5"-2" closer to the center of my body than I normally would. It's also easier to shoot an AK with your body more "squared-up" to the target.
Fishbed77 is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 11:18 PM   #4
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2012
Location: Oh, Jesus.
Posts: 200
You're pulling the trigger too slowly. Try a quick, crisp jerk and equally quick release. If you squeeze and hold the trigger, another round will go off as you release.
Stick the very bottom point of the butt stock in that nook in your shoulder, right below your clavicle. It'll look odd. Hold it by the magazine, pressing your elbow into your ribs with your left foot at 12 o'clock and your right foot at 6 o'clock. You can hold the rifle in that shooting position all day with one hand.

Last edited by Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret; February 13, 2013 at 11:32 PM.
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 11:25 PM   #5
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: TEXAS!
Posts: 1,256
Some mfg's AKs bump fire pretty easy. "If you practice" it is possible to bump fire the entire 30 round magazine in 4-5 seconds. Many observers may assume you have a full auto weapon, which can create problems.

Have fun
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابي
TXAZ is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 11:56 PM   #6
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,668
Quote:
If you squeeze and hold the trigger, another round will go off as you release.
No, it won't.... not unless something is very wrong. If that is the case, then the gun should be unloaded immediately and taken to a good gunsmith.
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 09:07 AM   #7
Kimio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Utah
Posts: 825
I've never heard of too slow trigger pull, I've fired a fair share of rifles and never have I ever had an issue where by me steadily and slowly applying pressure to the trigger before it finally released that it fired off a second round.

That sounds like a mechanical issue, one that could have possible legal implications. I'm no expert so don't take my word for it, as someone else has already said, if that's the case, you may want to get the rifle checked out by a competent smith to make sure all is in the green.

At any rate I hope you find an answer to your problem
Kimio is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 10:04 AM   #8
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: TEXAS!
Posts: 1,256
The 'most willing' weapon I've seen bump fire was an early 90's Norinco AK. To bump it had to be held firmly on the front grip but very lightly on the handgrip, and very very lightly on or just off your shoulder. This set up an oscillator that effectively let the weapon recoil from your arm (acting as a spring) while letting the trigger move back and froth against your effectively decoupled/ independent trigger finger.
Think of any weapon pointed up, that had a bungee supporting it from above. Then a fixed position stick pressing against the trigger. The recoil (aka bump) moves the weapon back far enough to reset the trigger. The bungee then pulls the weapon back against the stick re-firing the weapon. Same thing but different direction.

I never saw it (or any other for that matter) bump when pulled in tight against the shoulder and firmly gripped at the pistol grip. I expect that is true for your and most any other weapon.
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابي
TXAZ is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 11:38 AM   #9
Venom1956
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 2,890
Quote:
Try a quick, crisp jerk and equally quick release. If you squeeze and hold the trigger, another round will go off as you release.
LOL. For real? Thats gotta be the most incorrect trigger control advice I've ever heard.
__________________
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that.
I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph.
Venom1956 is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 02:04 PM   #10
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 1,953
Quote:
You're pulling the trigger too slowly. Try a quick, crisp jerk and equally quick release. If you squeeze and hold the trigger, another round will go off as you release.
Wow, totally wrong on the whole technique and the worst you can do for accuracy.

BTW, I to have MAK90 and I both slowly squeeze the trigger and hold it back.

The only time it will fire again (sans a screwed up fire control group) is if you let go (it bounces) and then pull the thing again, period.

If you squeeze and hold firmly it will never fire a second time, it simply cannot.

It can only fire if you get into an oscillation of fire, recoil as a result of loose hold, the the trigger bounces back to the fire position and it gets pulled again which is what this sounds like.

A good overall grip, squezze even after it fire adn hold bakc and no sisue.
RC20 is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 04:39 PM   #11
jdl
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2013
Posts: 3
ak47

I want to thank everybody for the info. I think I just need to follow through more on my trigger pull. It is a semi auto. I don't know the manufacturer.

As far as the site plain, maybe the stock is too short? I do have to really cheek down on it to line up the sites, very awkward for me. The other guy had the same site problem. A day or so later, he told me, his cheek felt like somebody punched him, from the recoil.

I'm 65, grew up with revolvers and bolt action rifles.

Thanks everybody.
jdl is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 04:48 PM   #12
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,044
JDL -

This is anathema for some AK purists, but I found the standard length stock on my AK to be WAY too short and replaced it with an adjustable stock. Here it is showing the length difference between what it was and my preferred length of pull. This made a huge improvement in the shootability of the rifle and I have gotten my 5-shot group size down to 1.6" at 100 yards using the iron sights and cheap steel-cased ammo.



spacecoast is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 06:08 PM   #13
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2012
Location: Oh, Jesus.
Posts: 200
There was a month where I didn't want to shoot it because that second round would go off and miss the berm often enough. So I took out the bolt carrier and held the hammer down with my thumb to gage the distance in trigger pull between the two sears which hold the bottom of the hammer disengaging and the other sear engaging the top of the hammer, should the shooter hold the trigger down. Obviously there was a huge distance in trigger pull where none of the sears would engage. I decided to get those two sears back into position to catch the hammer; hence the quick jerk and quick release. That solved the misfire issue.
Correct, jerking the trigger might not be as accurate but I only need to hit a milk jug at 70 yards on the front lawn without neighboors hearing a bullet go tearing across the countryside.
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 06:15 PM   #14
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,668
Lt.,

If your gun is firing when you *release* the trigger, do not keep shooting it. If you have to "jerk" the trigger to keep it from happening, do not keep shooting it.

Take it to a gunsmith.... that way you can actually use proper shooting form and fundamentals when you shoot the gun, and it isn't detrimental, not to mention unsafe, to shoot the gun.
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 07:17 PM   #15
JD0x0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2013
Posts: 714
Sounds like he accidently bump fired it.
JD0x0 is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 08:43 AM   #16
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,668
The firing mechanism in an AK is pretty simple - there should be no reason to ever need a gunsmith to look at it. If this was happening to me, I'd simply buy a set of Tapco parts and install them - $30. If installing new fire control parts doesn't fix the problem then the only other problem it could be is a receiver that is out of spec - holes not drilled in the right location, etc. In that case, there's nothing a gunsmith can do to fix the problem that wouldn't be ridiculously expensive. (nothing I'm aware of)
Skans is online now  
Old February 15, 2013, 11:31 AM   #17
Carne Frio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2008
Location: Near Fairbanks Alaska
Posts: 709
I too had a Norinco 84s that would double. I put a
Tapco trigger group in it and have had no further
problems.

Last edited by Carne Frio; February 15, 2013 at 11:01 PM.
Carne Frio is online now  
Old February 15, 2013, 12:32 PM   #18
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 1,953
Quote:
JDL -

This is anathema for some AK purists, but I found the standard length stock on my AK to be WAY too short and replaced it with an adjustable stock. Here it is showing the length difference between what it was and my preferred length of pull. This made a huge improvement in the shootability of the rifle and I have gotten my 5-shot group size down to 1.6" at 100 yards using the iron sights and cheap steel-cased ammo.
I don't know any AK purists! They are junk yard dogs. Whatever works!

Well I will modify that a bit. I would not normally mess with the stock that came with the gun. Read that if it has any value.

The MAK90 Thumb-holes actually have some collector value and not into other AKs enough to know.

So, if it has value as is, then buy an aftermarket to mess wiht, but again, if it needs to be changed to make it work right, then thats what an AK is all about, working.
RC20 is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 11:19 PM   #19
mrbatchelor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2010
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 237
ak47

Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20 View Post
I don't know any AK purists! They are junk yard dogs. Whatever works!
I thought that's what an AK purist is!
mrbatchelor is offline  
Old February 16, 2013, 04:28 PM   #20
Puddle
Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2013
Posts: 57
I have never had an unintentional 'bump fire' out of any of my AK variants - WASRs, Nornicos, Saigas...

Who manufactured that AK and, more specifically, who made the fire control mechanism? If the automatic firing happens consistently, I would check the fire control group. If you have a firearm that consistently fires rounds when you hold the trigger to the rear, you have some legal issues in play.
Puddle is offline  
Old February 16, 2013, 06:22 PM   #21
JD0x0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2013
Posts: 714
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlaiFeP0jnk
JD0x0 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12549 seconds with 7 queries