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Old February 15, 2013, 10:38 PM   #151
P1090
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Fair enough. They could have pulled back the cordon and starved him out. I believe he also was reported to have had a .50 cal rifle. How far do you want them to pull back? No way of knowing what he had in the cabin with him. He was in a heated cabin in winter, most likely with some sort of supplies. I'd say he was in a better position than the guys who had to stand outside in the snow surrounding the cabin. Eventually the officers on site would have had to apprehend Dorner, be it inside or outside. If the fire was on purpose, maybe it was to flush him out; still would be a very dangerous situation. Looks like the best possible outcome. Suspect is stopped with no further police casualties.

The rest still holds true. I'm not going to arm chair quarterback on the internet for men who were in a life or death situation and had already taken casualties. The officers stopped his rampage quickly, while keeping a fairly low body count for what it could have been. Maybe it could have been prettier and more PC-friendly, but they got the job done.
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Old February 16, 2013, 04:25 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya View Post
Historically, the LAPD has been the "the international poster child for police abuse and corruption in the 1990s in cases ranging from the beating of Rodney King to the trial of O.J. Simpson."
Not just the LAPD but they have been at the forefront.

See the Mollen Commission, the Christopher Commission, the Knapp Commission, and the Rampart Division Investigations.

In ‘The Development of the American Police: An Historical Overview’, Craig Uchida notes that "If there is a common theme that can be used to characterize the police in the 19th Century, it is the large-scale corruption that occurred in most police departments across the United States" (Uchida, 1993).

In ‘Forces of Deviance: Understanding the Dark Side of Policing’, Kappeler, Sluder, and Alpert point out that corruption among police is not new or peculiar to the late 20th century. "To study the history of police is to study police deviance, corruption and misconduct." (Kappeler et al., 1994.)
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Old February 16, 2013, 05:23 AM   #153
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JimDandy, I think you are confusing your Eastwood movies. High Plains Drifter wasn't in the trilogy; the rape that occurs there involves the ghost of a murdered sheriff, who exacts varying forms of revenge on the townsfolk who allowed or caused his death.

OK, back to the thread.

P1090, assuming he had a .50 rifle, the determining factor would not only be its potential range. Bear in mind this was a heavily wooded area. Line of sight would not be long, so now you are talking about un-aimed fire through dense trees. Again, the cordon could have been pulled back, and barricades could have easily been put in place (sand bags or HESCO barriers brought in by truck, or berms raised by armored bulldozers). Remote sensors could have been left in place closer to the cabin, or aerial sensors employed from overhead.

Dorner was not going anywhere.

The tactics used, based on the results and the radio transcripts, were not intended to effect an arrest. They were intended to result in a kill, no matter what.

Do we have all the facts? No. But the prima facie evidence indicates an intention to commit murder; if these were private citizens, and not cops, they would be arrested even in a Stand Your Ground state.

Would they be convicted? Perhaps not. But they would be arrested.
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Old February 16, 2013, 08:50 AM   #154
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A man that shot and killed 8 people in Appomattox, Va in 2010 was sentenced yesterday. The reason I mention this man, Christopher Speight, is because seeing he was sentenced reminded me of the way he was captured.

Long story short, this guy shot members of his family and friends of his family. The police arrived and had him "surrounded" in a wooded area. During the time they had him surrounded, he managed to shoot the state police helicopter forcing it to land. Anyway, the police set up a perimeter around the wooded area and waited. The next morning, a man walk up from *outside* of the perimeter and stood with the police and a roadblock. The police decided to tell the guy to leave, the guy said "I could have killed you all if I wanted to" or something to that effect.

My point being, setting up a secure perimeter in a wooded area is not as easy as it sounds. It was going to be dark soon at that cabin and trying to contain this nutball was going to get more difficult.

That is not to say the police were correct in their actions, it is only to say that setting up a secure perimeter before night fell in a wooded area might not be as easy as it sounds.
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Old February 16, 2013, 12:41 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimpeel
In ‘Forces of Deviance: Understanding the Dark Side of Policing’, Kappeler, Sluder, and Alpert point out that corruption among police is not new or peculiar to the late 20th century. "To study the history of police is to study police deviance, corruption and misconduct." (Kappeler et al., 1994.)
Well, yes. In particular, the racist, corrupt culture of the LAPD dates from long before the Rodney King incident.

I grew up in Los Angeles in the '50's and '60's. The corruption, and especially the racism, of the police force were facts of life. The zoot riots of the '40s, and the police response to them (in which officers stood by as white servicemen assaulted blacks and Hispanics, and then arrested hundreds of the victims), were recent memories, and I was there during the Watts riots in 1965 (a reaction against police racism and brutality), when Chief Parker famously described the people in Watts as acting like "monkeys in the zoo."

It was common knowledge at that time that one of the main functions of the LAPD was to keep "those people" in particular geographic areas (South Central and East LA), and that they turned a blind eye to drug trafficking in those districts, as a way of keeping the residents pacified and under control.

It's a pity that after 8 years of Federal oversight brought on by these and subsequent problems, the underlying culture doesn't seem to have changed all that much.
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Old February 16, 2013, 12:55 PM   #156
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Quote:
It was common knowledge at that time that one of the main functions of the LAPD was to keep "those people" in particular geographic areas (South Central and East LA), and that they turned a blind eye to drug trafficking in those districts, as a way of keeping the residents pacified and under control.
IIRC, every time someone from those areas was arrested for drug trafficking, the PD was hit with discrimination lawsuits? They were attacked for trying to enforce the law and now attacked for not enforcing it???

If the PD could not figure out a way to contain one bad guy in a cabin that did not have any power for the night, then they have more important issues to deal with.

I think the PD is no better than Dorner in this situation
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Old February 16, 2013, 03:23 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by MLeake

Dorner was not going anywhere.

The tactics used, based on the results and the radio transcripts, were not intended to effect an arrest. They were intended to result in a kill, no matter what.

Do we have all the facts? No. But the prima facie evidence indicates an intention to commit murder; if these were private citizens, and not cops, they would be arrested even in a Stand Your Ground state.

Would they be convicted? Perhaps not. But they would be arrested.
^^^^ YES

Dorner may not have survived but the angry cops made sure he couldn't. I do not doubt Dorner's guilt. To me, the guilt of the angry cops is beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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Old February 16, 2013, 03:28 PM   #158
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I don't understand all the concern for someone who murdered at least two innocent people and threatened more. He was making a stand in the house and the fire was used. He could have come out hands up. Instead he shot himself in the head. He didn't burn alive.

Argue police tactics all you want. It's easy to second guess those who are in combat. Politicians do it all the time.

He got what he deserved.
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Old February 16, 2013, 03:46 PM   #159
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We, or at least I, am not second guessing whether Dorner forfeited his right to life. But I have questions and concerns about how things ended up where they did.

Can you honestly tell me you don't hope or assume they knew beyond doubt:

He was alone.

It really was him in there.

They did give him a chance to get out before fire closed off the exit.

They would have taken him alive had he come out.

The "Burner" brand tear gas they were using wouldn't start a fire they couldn't control if some form of take him alive order came down from on high?

I've listed questions of this type before in this thread. I'm not saying Dorner shouldn't be fried, but as someone else said two wrongs don't make a right, and I want to know if they added a second wrong here. I want an uninvolved party to do an investigation. I want them to answer the questions we all have, no matter our opinion of Dorner himself, on the conduct and tempered justice with mercy provided by the officers involved. For future reference, bullet to the head or burn to death is not tempering justice with mercy.

I'd also like to point out that if your best answer is they were just "fighting fire with fire" euphamistically- i.e. that Dorner was military and police rules handicap them.. aren't the good guys supposed to be "Better" than the bad guys? Isn't "stooping" to their level a bad thing?
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Old February 16, 2013, 07:11 PM   #160
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JimPage, part of my career was spent doing collateral damage estimation, and threat identification.

So spare me the theatrical references to politicians, thanks.

Edit: While you are at it, last I saw, he allegedly killed four, not two. The retired captain's daughter and her fiance, a Riverside cop, and a San Bernardino deputy.

Nobody is crying over Dorner. The issue is the manner in which the police conducted their operation, and the potential for repeats of the same. After all, in a way this one was just a repeat of MOVE and Branch Dravidian, no?
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Old February 16, 2013, 10:42 PM   #161
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Back on page 2 of this thread, I gave this warning:

Quote:
However, any more bloodlust posts (or any suggesting someone got what "they deserve") will lead to closure of this thread.
And now we have just that. Thanks to those who contributed insight, but unless new information arrives, this one's done.
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