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Old February 15, 2013, 10:28 AM   #101
I'vebeenduped
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Excuse me for not checking the LA times. Fox doesn't question it and neither does CNN. In the age of the internet, where something can be posted immediately, even the LA times is behind the power curve. I do not think that my post was wrong. Besides, they only mention one person with a contention against it. Not really what I would consider thorough reporting. Besides, I said LARGELY silent. Similar to MOSTLY dead...
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:43 AM   #102
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I did not check the LA Times directly either, I went to google news and did a search. Huff post has an article, Wash Times has an article, the Wash Post has an article, the Guardian has an article, Reason mag has an article, etc. I mentioned the LA Times because it is the local paper and their coverage would more likely result in questions being asked of the right people. The article in the Wash Post is in their top 5 stories at the moment, which means they will likely keep writing about it.

I don't think there is some conspiracy to keep this quiet.
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:52 AM   #103
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I never said anything about a conspiracy theory. Funny, I just checked the Huffington post and there is an article, waaaay down at the bottom, about them identifying the body. I didn't see much of anything about them reporting on the Police force using an uncontrollable weapon against a perp. If you ask me, they are spending too much time about someone with cotton mouth. At any rate, I am not going to hijack this thread debating with someone that obviously has a wild hair. My point; This is a terrible threat to due process. The media is certainly not clamoring like they should be. If you want to play semantics, play by yourself!
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:55 AM   #104
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Yep when they lit up not one but TWO pickup trucks that only vaguely looked like the suspects that pretty much said they won't be taking him alive.
In wounder if the people in those vehicles had returned fire, thinking the real cops were actually the nut job or even defending themselves against another cop gone crazy, if they would have had charges pressed against them?

And will charges be pressed against the cops that fired on these two vehicles. Firearm safety 101, know your target and whats behind your target
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Old February 15, 2013, 11:45 AM   #105
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So after watching LAPD's response, are you inclined to give the accusations against them more or less credibility? Whatever else you can say about Dorner, he seems to have won the information operations part of the fight.
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Old February 15, 2013, 12:00 PM   #106
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So after watching LAPD's response, are you inclined to give the accusations against them more or less credibility?

The LAPD has a history. Cue Forrest Gump; "And that's all I have to say about that." What matters the most out of all of this is that the LAPD, and all police forces for that matter, need to follow the law, the very letter of the law, as they are the enforcers of it.
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Old February 15, 2013, 12:45 PM   #107
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In wounder if the people in those vehicles had returned fire, thinking the real cops were actually the nut job or even defending themselves against another cop gone crazy, if they would have had charges pressed against them?
do you think there is any possibility of them being alive today if they returned fire?
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Old February 15, 2013, 12:53 PM   #108
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the cops missed them when they (innocents in vehicles) were not hiding or expecting to get shot at plus they (the cops) were not taking fire, so yes I think there is a fair chance of survival.
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Old February 15, 2013, 12:56 PM   #109
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the cops missed them when they (innocents in vehicles) were not hiding or expecting to get shot at plus they (the cops) were not taking fire, so yes I think there is a fair chance of survival.
I think if they had of returned fire, the whole of the police dept would have been there and shot the crap out of them, unless of course they burned them out. Thats just a guess though.
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:51 PM   #110
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Got to wonder about a few things...where was the neat infrared stuff they always seem to have, for finding bodies, trapped people, etc.? Could one of those devices have been used to detertmine if he was alone in the cabin?

Nobody is saying anything about that....

also, just fyi, fire has been a preferred weapon against a barricaded enemy for thousands of years, probably about as long as we have had fire.

And that is what Dorner was, an enemy. Not just a lawbreaker who had to be caught, but an enemy who had to be stopped. And after all, the whole point of shooting teargas (and causing a fire) is to drive them out. If they choose to stay and die, is that the police's fault? (note, that is just an opinion, and you are quite welcome to have a different one)

Now, did the police act ..hastily in this case? That's for the armchair experts to decide. But I expect nothing worse than a review, and possibly a policy change, at most.

Using tear gas canisters that are called "burners" and then claiming you had no intention of a fire starting is kind of stupid, though....

police ought to use the gentlest methods practical, but they are not required to do so. Any such requirement would put officers at unacceptable risks too often. Do the police go to far, sometimes? Yes. Do people think they go to far sometimes? Yes. That's why there are police brutality lawsuits.

He's dead. Confirmed. In a few days, it will be gone from the public view. Maybe a few people will call the cops to task over the specific procedure used, but they got the guy, cop killer and madman, so in the end, it will blow over. Not what I think ought to happen, but what will happen in the real world.

Has everyone forgotten the fact that "Wanted, Dead or Alive" is not just a TV show? No, we don't want the power of legal summary execution in the hands of the police, but we also want the really bad people stopped, and stopped conclusively.

Setting fire to the cabin alone didn't kill him, he could have come out. At least, that's a plausible argument. Not quite the same as using armored vehicles to smash in the building, trapping women & children inside for the fire to finish off....that was so wrong....

What happened to the people who ordered and did that? Nada. Same thing will happen to them here...

Another point, and one that for which there will never be any kind of official acknowledgement, they had to resolve this situation before certain people turned him into any more of a folk hero/martyr than they have already done.

Fire often settles things quite well.....
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Old February 15, 2013, 02:05 PM   #111
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Another point, and one that for which there will never be any kind of official acknowledgement, they had to resolve this situation before certain people turned him into any more of a folk hero/martyr than they have already done.

As far as people turning Dorner into a folk hero, maybe much of that was about someone standing up to police abuse. Certainly Dorner did some terrible things, but maybe his admirers are able to overlook that in the same way you are able to overlook the terrible things the police did.
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Old February 15, 2013, 02:13 PM   #112
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Standing up to police abuse by murdering an unarmed man and woman that had nothing to do with the situation other then being related to someone he believed did him wrong? I just don't think anyone that thinks reasonably can get past something like that.
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Old February 15, 2013, 02:27 PM   #113
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Standing up to police abuse by murdering an unarmed man and woman that had nothing to do with the situation other then being related to someone he believed did him wrong? I just don't think anyone that thinks reasonably can get past something like that.
People are getting past law enforcement deliberately setting fire to a house and burning a man alive.

I would guess some of those who see Dorner as a folk hero have been abused by police in the past. Maybe they see Dorner as the only one who took any action to stop it. Idk, but to suggest killing the man is legitimate, because some in the community admired him, is wrong.

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Old February 15, 2013, 02:37 PM   #114
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well said 44 AMP.
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Old February 15, 2013, 02:49 PM   #115
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People are getting past law enforcement deliberately setting fire to a house and burning a man alive.

I would guess some of those who see Dorner as a folk hero have been abused by police in the past. Maybe they see Dorner as the only one who took any action to stop it. Idk, but to suggest killing the man is legitimate, because some in the community admired him, is wrong.
Maybe my moral compass is jacked up, but I don't see any equivalence between murdering an innocent woman and burning/shooting or whatever someone that committed murder and was, very recently before he was killed, attempting to kill more people.

I am not a fan of burning people out of buildings, assuming that is what happened. The situation should be reviewed/investigated. I would not suggest murdering him because people admired him was the correct thing to do and I certainly don't think that was the motivation of the police.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:00 PM   #116
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44 AMP wrote:
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And that is what Dorner was, an enemy. Not just a lawbreaker who had to be caught, but an enemy who had to be stopped.
I think you are missing the point. Dorner was stopped. He was holed up inside that house and was completely surrounded. He wasn't going anywhere. He was contained.

The problem is that the police didn't want him brought to justice to be tried by a jury. They chose instead to press the extrication of their 'enemy' by using not one but seven tear gas grenades that are well known (and euphemistically referred to as "burners") known to cause fires.

The LA Times reported today that law enforcement want to end the confrontation "before night fall". Why? The LA Times story also reported that the police were "running out of options".

If the police attempted good-faith negotiations with Dorner to give up, they probably should consider the public release of the audio for those conversations.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:02 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Willie Sutton View Post
And who is a worse criminal? A criminal, or those represtatives of us, the people, who we charge with the responsibility to enforce those laws that are constitutional? IE: No person shall be deprived of LIFE without due process of law.
Who will protect us from those who protect us?

Whoever holds a monopoly on firearms will also hold a monopoly on firearms violence. Does anyone here want that monopoly to be held by the government or their representatives?

As for using fire as a weapon, it was very effective during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Nothing has changed.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:03 PM   #118
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but I don't see any equivalence between murdering an innocent woman and burning/shooting or whatever someone that committed murder and was, very recently before he was killed, attempting to kill more people.

But do you see how some who have been abused by the police on account of race might look at someone who attacked the police back as a type of hero? I am just saying that things escalated and ended up with a man getting burned alive by the police. Who knows how that will be seen by some and if that will be escalated.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:08 PM   #119
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Certainly Dorner did some terrible things, but maybe his admirers are able to overlook that in the same way you are able to overlook the terrible things the police did.
There are head cases everywhere that admirer people like Dorner. He got what he deserved the ones to admire are the police that stoped him . And the ones that the sympathy should go to are the people he murdered and their families.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:11 PM   #120
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I'm gonna fall back on Mom's wisdom here. "Two wrongs don't make a right".
Aside from that, as was pointed out above, he (Dorner) was winning the"information operations part of the fight.".
Under those conditions only an Idiot or a guilty person/organization uses a questionable method that silences the offender before they can be tried in a court of law. It looks bad, and anyone who thought for even a moment would realize that.
I'm baffled as to why media on both sides of the fence seem to be giving this a free pass.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:13 PM   #121
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He got what he deserved
Pity a jury cant say that. But I guess we dont really need them as long as we can trust the police to do what they think best.

Its funny all the people here who are second amendment proponents but dont care squat about the fifth.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:13 PM   #122
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But do you see how some who have been abused by the police on account of race might look at someone who attacked the police back as a type of hero? I am just saying that things escalated and ended up with a man getting burned alive by the police. Who knows how that will be seen by some and if that will be escalated
No, I cannot see how anyone can view a person that wrote a crazy manifesto, murdered at least two innocent people that had nothing to do with the situation (not even counting the police he murdered) can be viewed as a hero by anyone.

I think one can argue that the way the police handled the end of this was wrong, but I don't think anyone can reasonably argue this guy was a hero.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:21 PM   #123
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I think one can argue that the way the police handled the end of this was wrong, but I don't think anyone can reasonably argue this guy was a hero.
For the record I am not saying he was a hero. I am just saying that some people thought he was fighting the police because of prejudice. That kind of stuff gets ignored by people it doesnt affect and sometimes it comes back to bite them. Maybe Dorner was a whack job who would have murdered no matter what, idk.

Again I am not saying he was in any way right in what he did.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:22 PM   #124
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One more thing, go back and listen to the second recording again.
There is a sentence where they mention very clearly "blood spatter" in an interior section of the house. If that is true, then there is every possibility this guy was wounded and unable to flee when they set the cabin on fire around him.
The single gunshot mentioned may have been the only out he had.
I for one would really like that looked into further. Burning the house down around a wounded, incapacitated man is despicable in a way that can't be expressed in words.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:36 PM   #125
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I for one would really like that looked into further. Burning the house down around a wounded, incapacitated man is despicable in a way that can't be expressed in words.
Maybe just me i after what he did i don't have a problem with that. He put himself in that situation his decision. As for the ones not happy with the way the police handled the situation perhaps they could volunteer to go in and talk the guy out in a similar situation. PS I think people should hold of criticising the authorities until the facts of what happened become clear. I am assuming there are investigations and inquests into such incidents in America.
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