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Old February 13, 2013, 04:58 PM   #26
Come and take it.
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It would have been nice if they could have waited a bit to make sure he didn't have any hostages.
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Old February 13, 2013, 04:59 PM   #27
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overhead, I sure would feel differently. Only him in danger, target clearly identified. I'd still be asking some questions about whether they attempted negotiations. We don't even know if the body is his at this point.
I don't know what happened, but my understanding is he came out, popped smoke, fired at the officers and then was forced back inside when they returned fire. They knew he was in there, I don't know if they knew he was alone. Like I said, I have mixed feelings about this. I am usually really nervous about government use of power, especially when it results in the death of a citizen. There is part of me that believes one sort of throws their natural rights out the window when one starts shooting at police officers. Yeah, I know, the rights never go away, but I don't expect to be offered quarter when I am shooting at people.

When one factors in the shooting of the other innocent folks just for driving pick up trucks it does not look good for the LAPD.
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:04 PM   #28
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When one factors in the shooting of the other innocent folks just for driving pick up trucks it does not look good for the LAPD
That should read "When one factors in the shooting of the other innocent folks just for driving pick up trucks it does not look good for the San Bernadino County Sheriff's Department"
LAPD was not the agency that ended the situation.
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:08 PM   #29
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I find the whole situation very disturbing...on many different levels.
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:09 PM   #30
overhead
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That should read "When one factors in the shooting of the other innocent folks just for driving pick up trucks it does not look good for the San Bernadino County Sheriff's Department"
LAPD was not the agency that ended the situation.
Sorry, I assumed the LA Times had this story correct when they said the LAPD shot at this guy on his way to surf. Maybe I should know better then to trust the media.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb...oting-20130210

Again, I also read that the LAPD swat team was flown in and was in charge of the scene. But, I got that from the media as well so it certainly could be completely incorrect.

***Edit*** sorry, now I am confusing myself. I believe it was the newspaper delivery ladies the LAPD shot. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...new-truck.html
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:12 PM   #31
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I am not trying to re-direct this thread, but how different would it have been had they used a drone? C4? A Javelin? Dropped a mortar? It seems that the only goal here was to kill him. He could have been contemplating surrender. Heck, who knows, maybe he did and found a fire blocking his path. I think that, when police officers start making decisions for destruction versus enforcing the laws, we open Pandora's Box. (My apologies for my finding a lack of a better term there)

The major thing to remember here, they had nearly every tactical advantage. They could easily have starved him out. Look at what our military did with just speakers and Van Halen music! Granted, I don't know of all the fact here. I doubt we ever will with the way the lines have been drawn recently. This just smacks of a revenge killing to me... A torturous one at that.
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:29 PM   #32
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I believe it was the newspaper delivery ladies the LAPD shot.
So, question. If I'm driving along and a cop starts randomly shooting at my vehicle, am I legally allowed to fire back? I'm sure some other cops would not take kindly to me on arriving at the scene, but would it be within my rights?

Of course, who would ever believe a civilian saying that a cop shot at them first?
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:32 PM   #33
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I don't have any idea on that one LEGALLY. Inteliigently I'd fall on my ass, flip on my face and hold my empty hands as high as I could with the fingers spread as wide as I can get them. In a car, stomp the brakes, duck under the dash, and hold both hands out the window. When I got home, I'd change my shorts. And call a lawyer. It's real hard to collect on a civil suit when you're dead.
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:34 PM   #34
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If he walked near a window with his weapon and a sniper put a .308 in his head would you feel any differently? That certainly would have been justified as he had shown himself to be a direct threat to the officers on the scene.



Actually... without any hostages present, he was not a threat to anyone who did not willingly engage him. The on scene officers have the option to take cover, and wait. There was no hurry.

Me thinks the FBI HRT would be sitting there eating sandwiches right now and playing music (Unless they happened to bring Lon Horiuchi along)



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Old February 13, 2013, 05:36 PM   #35
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So, question. If I'm driving along and a cop starts randomly shooting at my vehicle, am I legally allowed to fire back? I'm sure some other cops would not take kindly to me on arriving at the scene, but would it be within my rights?

Of course, who would ever believe a civilian saying that a cop shot at them first?
I have no idea. I do not recall someone shooting at the police with it ending well for that person. I would assume one always has a right to defend their lives when attacked.
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:48 PM   #36
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Look at what our military did with just speakers and Van Halen music!
Was it David Lee Roth Van Halen or Sammy Hagar Van Halen. Many factors could hinge upon that distinction.

The LAPD has a lot to answer for here. They've inflicted collateral damage on uninvolved civilians in their haste, and now they've burned down a cabin without being sure the suspect didn't have hostages.

Then there are, as others have pointed out, due process considerations in their tactics. The whole thing has echoes of Waco.
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:55 PM   #37
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Aparently,when the cops go after a cop killer, all aspects of "due process"get left by the wayside, just as when the gun grabbers go after your gun rights.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:08 PM   #38
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Actually... without any hostages present, he was not a threat to anyone who did not willingly engage him. The on scene officers have the option to take cover, and wait. There was no hurry.

Me thinks the FBI HRT would be sitting there eating sandwiches right now and playing music (Unless they happened to bring Lon Horiuchi along)



Willie
Hi Willie. My understanding, from reading the always questionable media reports is that he was shooting at the police most of the time. Again, no idea if that is true or not. I am not saying they were justified, I am willing to say I will give them the benefit of the doubt until I can read more of the "facts". If we assume they should have set up a perimeter and waited we would also have to assume that perimeter would have to be out of rifle range. If this crazy fellow was shooting at them with a 5.56 how far away would they need to be? I would not feel safe within 1000+ meters without cover myself. In that terrain (which I assume to be wooded mountains) how many officers would it take to set up a secure perimeter? I have no idea as I really know little about running this type of operation. Lets assume they backed off and this guy some how managed to get away. First, they look like fools and second they endanger more citizens by allowing him to get away (and may endanger other officers which I assume to be a large motivator for police).

Did they have some way to verify he was alone (clear view into the cabin)? I have no idea. I don't know if they made the right decision or not. I would like more info. before throwing the police under the bus.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:10 PM   #39
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A story I read earlier today said the "burners" officers referred to is slang for CS gas canisters. Can't find that story right now. The LA Times is reporting police first fired in other gas and then the CS gas canisters which apparently have a fairly significant chance of starting a fire. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...-on-cabin.html. So, we shouldn't speculate that police used a flamethrower unless there is actual proof.

Still, I have to agree with those who believe police acted hastily and with malice when they decided to send in the gas canisters
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:20 PM   #40
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Was it David Lee Roth Van Halen or Sammy Hagar Van Halen. Many factors could hinge upon that distinction.
No, the Gary Cherone Van Halen, which qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment under the 8th Amendment.

All humor aside, they could have borrowed a remote control armored vehicle to deliver a phone, like the one used at Ruby Ridge. They forgot they were cops, and acted like military. This was destined to end badly, and it did, no winners, only losers. The public's trust in LEOs is irreparably damaged from the actions of several frightened men.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:24 PM   #41
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Has this been CONFIRMED????

This just doesn't seem right to me. The fire started less than three hours after they cornered the suspect in the cabin.

The smoke grenade was thrown by LE to help them recover a downed officer. LOTS of gunfire during that smoke grenade! The video is incredible!

But to burn him out? I think we need to find out how the fire started before passing any judgment. And can someone verify the authenticity of that radio exchange?

Please understand that I hold LEOs in the highest regard. The following is about SPECIFIC incidents that I don’t believe reflect on most LEOs. That being said, LAPD actions in some respects seem as criminal as the suspect in this case; to wit:

1. Firing on two newspaper deliver ladies who drive a similar truck as the suspect and are "throwing something" (newspaper) at one of the listed priority target’s house? Come on, you weren’t trained to fire on anything until you verify that the target is indeed a danger to you or those you are protecting.

2. Firing on an innocent man because he is driving a similar truck to the suspect. This gunfire causes a 911 call to report gunfire and so...

3. ... A few blocks away another police vehicle spots a pickup similar to the suspect’s while responding to the 911 call of gunfire, a traffic collision occurs and the officers start shooting at yet another innocent person whose only crime is driving a large 4-door pickup.

So while this fire would seem to fit the bill for a vigilante response, it does not seem to fit with proper police procedures in such a high visibility case; or any properly investigated case.

On the other hand, listening to Lt. Patrick Foy of the US Forestry Service describing the initial encounter with the suspect by his game wardens was truly harrowing! The first Warden to return fire used what Lt. Foy described as an AR15 Platform Rifle but in .308 caliber. It is nice to know that the Game Wardens are well armed (Lt. Foy said this is one of four weapons issued to each warden).
With all the bullets flying it is surprising that only two officers were hit. Sadly one officer succumbed to his injuries. It was especially heart rending to see the impromptu honor escort of 4 motorcycles leading the Coroner’s van from the hospital followed by dozens of police units.

May God watch over all our men and women in Law Enforcement. God bless all of you LEOs and former LEOs.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:27 PM   #42
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manta49, aside from ethical questions about even token attempts to effect an arrest, there is the larger issue of potential hostages.

In other words, what if there had been a hostage or two in there?

The officers could not have known, definitively, that there were none without approaching the cabin or sending in some sort of robot.

So, they seem to have just been lucky.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:31 PM   #43
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The thug had already murdered 3 innocents, then killed a cop who was taking part in the fire fight outside the cabin, so there was no more need to wait for him as far as I'm concerned----he had earned a sniper bullseye on his forehead. On the other hand, starting a fire the way they did....just looks bad, like Soviet style resolution. It's no worse to burn him than to snipe him, but it simply looks bad. I personally wouldn't care if they had brought in an Apache with 30mm cannon to finish him. Put it this way----if that was your cabin and he had just slain your wife, would you want to make sure he was arrested, or killed? I'd want him dead as a doornail.

There was absolutely no more need to have additional officers or innocents slain by this thug. I thank them for ending it right then and there as opposed to having to spend literally millions of dollars to prosecute him and then keep his sorry hide alive for 40 years.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:33 PM   #44
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FairWarning, would you be singing the same song if it had turned out there were an elderly couple also in the cabin? Just because it seems to have turned out well, this time, does not mean we should be ok with it - because that would give tacit approval for the next time, when the cops might not be so lucky with regard to the body count.

Or have you forgotten what happened at Waco?
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:36 PM   #45
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Thermal vision would/could have given them a good idea. Until the fire started. However it started.

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would you want to make sure he was arrested, or killed? I'd want him dead as a doornail.
If I get to pick, I'll take quadraplegic going through the automatic death penalty appeals process.

If I don't get to pick that much, I'll still take arrested. I'll get more closure by making the victim statement at trial and then attending his lethal injection, firing squad, or electrocution than watching parts of what MAY have been his death on TV.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:45 PM   #46
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I'll take arrested, tried, convicted and in prison - I have extensive personal experience with prison, and he would have NOT had a fun time - cop killers do NOT fare well.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:46 PM   #47
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I wasn't there, so I wont comment on this particular incident.

But as to communication:

Communication is available I don't care where you are.

RMI's (Remote Mobile Investigators) or otherwise known as Bomb Robots have a means to communicate with the bandit and the police without exposing anyone to danger.

The Bomb Squad robots have a speaker and microphone attached. You can be, lets say 200 feet away under cover and have a conversation with the bandit.

I was the senior Tec for our bomb squad and was responsible for maintaince on our RMI. We did a lot of work with SWAT and Hostage Neg. in using the robot for communication, plus for delivering food and water without any one being put in danger.

The RMI can also be equipped with weapons in case things go south.

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Old February 13, 2013, 07:08 PM   #48
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There was absolutely no more need to have additional officers or innocents slain by this thug. I thank them for ending it right then and there as opposed to having to spend literally millions of dollars to prosecute him and then keep his sorry hide alive for 40 years.


The United States of America is supposed to operate under the rule of law, not the law of the jungle.
Justice is to administered in a courtroom, and that's what separates us from the savages.

While I understand your emotions, there is no reason for the process to be circumvented. There's a name for a nation where judgement is rendered by the police: It's called a Police State. That, sadly, is where we are headed. This is just one example out of thousands.


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Old February 13, 2013, 07:29 PM   #49
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Justice is to administered in a courtroom, and that's what separates us from the savages.
Thank you for beating me to it.

We have never, and should never, delegate the authority to conduct summary executions to law enforcement. That said, the details are still sparse and sometimes contradictory. We don't know the whole story yet.

However, any more bloodlust posts (or any suggesting someone got what "they deserve") will lead to closure of this thread.
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Old February 13, 2013, 08:38 PM   #50
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Look down right in front of your feet folks, that thing you see is the slippery slope.
" As long as they are a bad enough person we should just kill them, no trial needed" sounds good initially, but the longer you think about it the more it should chill you deep inside.
Trials happen for a good reason. It won't happen in this case now, he's dead. Some hearings maybe, no trial. No determination by "a jury of his peers" , just news reports, and I'll bet we all feel the same way about the trusting the news media.
If someone tomorrow convinces enough people in law enforcement that you're
responsible for killing LE officers will it be okay that they kill you without due process?
EDIT I'm sure it wouldn't take too long to find cases where people were mis-labeled as a"cop killer" so I don't really want to hear about "tinfoil hat's" etc.
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